Zane Hodges: Free Grace Fracture

[Lou Martuneac]

It is There...

To All:

I have made my point with Antonio elsewhere. In post #16 above you can read from the reviews of other men just how far askew of the biblical plan of salvatin Antonio's "Crossless" gospel is.

Of course, Antonio claims all of them "mischaracterize" his position. Can a wide cross-section of writers/reviewers, even from within the Free Grace camp, who are unnanimous in their rejection of the Hodges' "Crossless" gospel be unanimously "mischaracterizing" Hodges? Theirs, just as my evaluation, is based on what Hodges has written. It is in print, it is there for anyone to evaluate for themselves.

BTW, at Blue Collar an interesting discussion is underway on the same topic. Go to Blue Collar.

Also see, Well, How About That? This was the first article at Blue Collar. Only this morning did I see that they linked to my site.

The notes below are from Post #16, but you have to go back to that post to click on the links.​

LM

For a wide cross-section of errors with Zane Hodges visit, The Teachings of Zane Hodges by Pastor George Zeller.

To read how Zane Hodges has shifted on repentance to a new position that is antithetical to Scripture visit Wrapping the Series on Zane Hodges scroll to the bottom and read Harmony With God by Hodges. I provide links at the bottom of my article to the three part series by Hodges. I provide a synopsis of Hodges on repentance in my article titled, The Teaching of Zane Hodges.

For example, Hodges, which Antonio parrots, takes the position that the process of repentance may be a preparatory step in coming to salvation, and should be evident in the life of a believer, but a lost man can be born again without repentance. Hodges also said he no longer holds to the “change of mind” view of repentance.

Another penetrating article, not to be overlooked, is one I recently discovered titled, Sanctification : Understanding the Controversy Being Created by the Free Grace Movement by Mr. Lenny Demers. The article cites Hodges from numerous sources that substantiate much of what I have been sharing of late in regard to the teaching of Zane Hodges.

And there is more documented evidence for the “Crossless” gospel of Zane Hodges. A response was written by Pastor Gregory P. Sapaugh and appears in the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, A Response to Hodges: How To Lead A Person To Christ, Parts 1 and 2.

 

[AAA]

N/T...I must read this latter.................

Message to self.

 

[npetreley]

BTW, at Blue Collar an interesting discussion is underway on the same topic. Go to Blue Collar.

I read as far as this, and stopped:

I would never have admitted that I had an idol but that is why I carried it in my pocket. If it is out of sight it really doesn’t exist even if it is very much in my mind. You see I found, much to my displeasure, that I was so preoccupied with Calvin that I had almost forgotten my Christ.

Too bad for him, I guess. I could be wrong, but I don't know of anyone on here who has the same problem. Most of the so-called Calvinists on here (including myself) haven't even read much or any Calvin. We go by that name simply because it's easier than saying something like "Predestination and election and grace-ists". Frankly, I think I even part ways with some points of traditional Calvinism, but I'm not uncomfortable being called a Calvinist. Yet I don't even have the slightest fear that I'm focusing on Calvinism (let alone Calvin) to a point of idolatry, let alone making it more important than Christ. I don't get that impression about ANY of the OTHER Calvinists here, either.

I'm sorry he got so carried away. Yawn. Moving on.

 

[Allan]

Too bad for him, I guess. I could be wrong, but I don't know of anyone on here who has the same problem. Most of the so-called Calvinists on here (including myself) haven't even read much or any Calvin. We go by that name simply because it's easier than saying something like "Predestination and election and grace-ists". Frankly, I think I even part ways with some points of traditional Calvinism, but I'm not uncomfortable being called a Calvinist. Yet I don't even have the slightest fear that I'm focusing on Calvinism (let alone Calvin) to a point of idolatry, let alone making it more important than Christ. I don't get that impression about ANY of the OTHER Calvinists here, either.

I'm sorry he got so carried away. Yawn. Moving on.

This was written in another thread not long ago:

Give God the glory for the gift of John Calvin to His Church .

Enough said :laugh:


Regarding the person who wrote it, I wouldn't put the comment specifically up there with idolitry, but still...

 

[Jarthur001]

This was written in another thread not long ago:


Enough said :laugh:


Regarding the person who wrote it, I wouldn't put the comment specifically up there with idolitry, but still...

Allan,

I have no idea who said that. I have no idea the context in which it was said. But let me ask you this. You are a pastor so I'm sure you can relate to this.

How would you feel if someone came to you and said...

Give God all the glory and praise and honor for sending you borther Allan to us. You have been truly a gift from God to us and His blessed church.

This may make you feel uncomfortable for a moment, but do you really think they have fallen in idolatry with this statement or do you think they are thankful to God for all His blessing that He gives to His church, including all the pastors?

 

[Allan]

Allan,

I have no idea who said that. I have no idea the context in which it was said. But let me ask you this. You are a pastor so I'm sure you can relate to this.

How would you feel if someone came to you and said...



This may make you feel uncomfortable for a moment, but do you really think they have fallen in idolatry with this statement or do you think they are thankful to God for all His blessing that He gives to His church, including all the pastors?

I would wonder why someone was exhalting me with the words "Give God the glory for the gift of Allan to His Church (meaning world wide)"

I would say someone was going over board, and needed to be toned down!
BTW - I also stated in my comment "I wouldn't put the comment specifically up there with idolitry".

It is sweet to come to the defence of someone you don't know, and try to give an explantion to the context you have no clue that is was given in.

However, that being said I think you are stretching it quite a bit to give some reasonable credence for such an ... off color statement. I have never heard of anyone giving any man such an extolation nor proclaiming glory to God for any such man - except Christ Jesus Himself. That doesn't mean no one has I'm just saying it isn't something we do, even rarely toward God for any man in such a manner.

Now that phrase "we praise God for you brother." though it means 'somewhat' the same it is different in the sense of importance and exclusiveness.

 

[Jarthur001]

I would wonder why someone was exhalting me with the words "Give God the glory for the gift of Allan to His Church (meaning world wide)"

I would say someone was going over board, and needed to be toned down

!

Of course you would. And so did John Calvin as you well know. This however did not stop the praise from coming to John, nor will they stop coming to you. But what was asked was this. Do you think those that shake your hand at the door and say such things are worshiping you and thankful to God?

BTW - I also stated in my comment "I wouldn't put the comment specifically up there with idolitry".

Of course and I read that the 1st time. And you also said with a laugh.."Enough said". I wanted to see if there was more to be said...and it looks like they maybe.

It is sweet to come to the defence of someone you don't know, and try to give an explantion to the context you have no clue that is was given in.

Of course it was. I'm a sweet man.

It was also kind of you to address this post...

........Yet I don't even have the slightest fear that I'm focusing on Calvinism (let alone Calvin) to a point of idolatry,.............

with this...

This was written in another thread not long ago:

Quote:
Give God the glory for the gift of John Calvin to His Church .

Enough said :laugh:

Thanks.

However you are wrong one one key point. I gave an explanation to anything, did I? I simply asked if you feel your church members worshipped you. You said no..well..sorta...and I will have to take your word for it, because I don't know them. However, you may have to take others statements that they don't "follow" Calvin as well, being you don't know them. So when a Calvinist says...

Yet I don't even have the slightest fear that I'm focusing on Calvinism (let alone Calvin) to a point of idolatry

Is not this "enough said"...or must we wait for your own "enough said"?

However, that being said I think you are stretching it quite a bit to give some reasonable credence for such an ... off color statement.

This must be address to someone else, for I asked only what you thought

I have never heard of anyone giving any man such an extolation nor proclaiming glory to God for any such man - except Christ Jesus Himself.

Being that you have never heard this, does not mean other preachers do not hear it. Many do each week

That doesn't mean no one has I'm just saying it isn't something we do, even rarely toward God for any man in such a manner.

Of course.

Now that phrase "we praise God for you brother." though it means 'somewhat' the same it is different in the sense of importance and exclusiveness.

You place value on the words you want. We all do...

For you that may mean nothing. Others may see your folks focusing on you to much.


Like wise, you may see to much glory given to another. When the other...may see nothing wrong.

Its the heart of the person that matters more. right?

 

[Allan]

Of course you would. And so did John Calvin as you well know.

We are not talking about whether or not John Calvin thought he should or shouldn't be praised.

This however did not stop the praise from coming to John, nor will they stop coming to you. But what was asked was this. Do you think those that shake your hand at the door and say such things are worshiping you and thankful to God?

That was not what you asked.

Of course and I read that the 1st time. And you also said with a laugh.."Enough said". I wanted to see if there was more to be said...and it looks like they maybe.

No, it was enough said.

Of course it was. I'm a sweet man.

I didn't deny that now did I? :thumbs:

It was also kind of you to address this post...

I did address it when I stated "I wouldn't put the comment specifically up there with idolitry", but I thought you said you read that already.

However you are wrong one one key point. I gave an explanation to anything, did I?

Yes you did, and are still trying to explain it.

I simply asked if you feel your church members worshipped you. You said no..well..sorta...and I will have to take your word for it, because I don't know them.

That is patently false James. I didn't say nor insinuate "no..well..sorta...".
I said :
I would say someone was going over board, and needed to be toned down!

However, you may have to take others statements that they don't "follow" Calvin as well, being you don't know them. So when a Calvinist says...

Sorry. Calvinist, Arminian, or Morman - When a person is spoken of in such a manner and specifically as to be a gift to the Whole Church Body everywhere, there is a potental problem that needs to be addressed.

Is not this "enough said"...or must we wait for your own "enough said"?

Uh, Npet was not the one who made the comment I quoted.
However, as I have said again, and now again (so please listen this time) I didn't state some were worshipping Calvin. I was simply showing they can apparently get pretty close.

Being that you have never heard this, does not mean other preachers do not hear it. Many do each week

I would like to meet or know some of these preachers who are praised and said to by people all over: "Give God the glory for the gift of (their name here) to His World Wide Church." The Entire Church globally was the reference of the quote.

You place value on the words you want. We all do...

True, but the context of his words regarded the exclusive importance of J. Calvin to the Entire Church of God. So the value taken was from the one who wrote it.

For you that may mean nothing. Others may see your folks focusing on you to much.

I wished :laugh:

Like wise, you may see to much glory given to another. When the other...may see nothing wrong.

Its the heart of the person that matters more. right?

Right. And like I said... I don't think they are refering to it in the form of idolitry. but they are still exhalting him higher and greater than any man should be.
Except Christ and the apostles - since He is the cornerstone and Him and the apostles where whom the Church is built up from.

 

[EdSutton]

I dunno' but I've sure seen some people, over the years, who sure "worshipped the pastor".

Me? I preferred to treat him like a god. I'd just invite him over for a meal and then serve him 'burnt offerings'. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[npetreley]

Give God the glory for the gift of John Calvin to His Church .

And what's wrong with that? To God be the glory! That sounds like the right attitude to me. I have read more Spurgeon than Calvin, so it would be more natural for me to say "Praise God for a man like Spurgeon".

God gets the glory because great men wouldn't be great unless God made them so.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Focus

This thread, which I opened to discuss the teaching of Zane Hodges in regard to the Gospel has drifted well off subject.

Since I opened this thread a great deal more has transpired in the debate over Hodges' position which has come to known as the "Crossless" gospel.

Please visit The Teaching of Zane Hodges at my site.

This is a series of articles with links to many more sites and articles in the discussion. You can interact with me and a number of other people on both sides of the debate at my site or one of several sites I provide links to.

Of course I am happy to discuss this subject here if anyone chooses to return to the subject for which it was intended.

Kind regards,


LM