AMEN!!! Preach it brother!!!:applause::1_grouphug:
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Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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AMEN!!! Preach it brother!!!:applause::1_grouphug:
To lose one's salvation is to have the Old Adamic Nature and New Nature of Christ still alive and kicking in each saved soul. That is so unbiblical! Sadly the NIV poorly translates in this area and instead of using the conditon of living after the flesh, erroneously translates it as the Old Man or Old Sin Nature. NIV is a good translation, but in Romans they are off, and it creates a dangerous dicotomy of thought about why we sin, and who is saved and who isn't. No one, not one person who has not received the new Adamic nature, namely the nature of Christ has an inheritance, nor relationship from God, but are at odds by Nature.
Now the issue with many true Christians that live as though they are not saved is a lack of understanding of their new identity or signifigance in Christ, that is part and partial with their being new creations in Christ Jesus.
How can a Christian grow, and become more Christlike without their minds being minds being renewed with scripture? Just because the old Adamic nature is left at the cross, the old Adamic natures pre-salvation programming is still in the new believer's soul. Romans 12 clearly states that we must start a mind or knowledge renewing campaign ASAP after salvation, that replaces the old fallen nature's programming that is entrenched in our souls.
At salvation many old things pass away, but many old things continue to create havoc in the believer.
A person that has lived with a life rejection in a disfunctional family, will indeed enjoy much peace, and change at salvation in most cases, but you know and I know that us Christians still have lots of things in our backpacks that carry-over from the old Adamic life, and it takes an act of our will to study, pray, and work against or counter those sinful or damaging traits. Again, the Old Man is dead, and now we fight with the power of sin, empowered by the demonic realm, and it still has access to us through our unredeemed flesh. Also we as Christians can slip into fleshly conditions where we supplant Christ at the helm of our souls with ourselves. Christ or the H.S. or Spirit of Christ does not vacate our souls, but is displaced by our "buying into" lies from without, and also the pre-programmed lies of the pre-salvation past still in our memories. God's Word replaces those lies we buy into, but they don't always dislodge easily, especially if we've lived lives that have created emotional, mental or physical upheavals over prolonged periods of time. God in His timing will release us quickly or possibly after a time, as He sees fit to do.
Becareful my brothers and sisters in Christ when attempting to determine whether a person is a wayward Christian or just not saved from the beginning.
Christ clearly said that all that the Father place in His hand cannot be plucked out. Also, that 100th or 99th sheep that wanders from the safety of the sheepfold is pursued by the Shepherd.
******
As the above scripture quotes mention...........They were not "of us"............They were with us...............but not "of us"...............I would think it's clear that "of us" is to be "of our kind"............ just associating with us, and partaking in our doings or going through the motions doesn't cut it.
The word "sealed" is also used in conjunction with salvation. If we can "unseal" ourselves............then we not only omnipotent as God, but we make a mockery of the work of Christ. How can we be saved by "unmerited favor"/Grace, receive a new nature and then have this "bent" in us that can undo all of that miraculous work.
Does God unadopt us? When we enter the sheepfold through the gate, then are very natures have been revealed. Only the false ones attempt to enter through other than the gate. They get in, but they don't hear or know the Father's/Shepherd's voice.
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Boy, if someone can misapply so many scriptures to one's security in Christ I don't think I want to take much counseling from them. I would not hook your caboose to this list of scriptures HP. It really doesn't make you shine brother.
If I recall, BobRyan also teaches the SDA doctrine that unless one is baptized with water they do not have the Holy Spirit. And we know that if one does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Ro 8) . So that equals no baptism in water, no salvation. Now if brother Bob is so far off on how one get's saved, then how do you expect him to understand how one stays saved?
As I keep pointing out to you, until you and Bob grasp what "born again" really entails, you will not understand that you are kept by the power of God.
:thumbsup:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
HP quotes a list of texts - with very little comment added.
Steaver responds --
"Boy, if someone can misapply so many scriptures to one's security in Christ I don't think I want to take much counseling from them"
The unbiased objective reader will find it "instructive" that the mere QUOTE of those texts leads Steaver to complain.
That is very telling as it turns out.
in Christ,
Bob
Steaver responds --
"Boy, if someone can misapply so many scriptures to one's security in Christ I don't think I want to take much counseling from them"
The unbiased objective reader will find it "instructive" that the mere QUOTE of those texts leads Steaver to complain.
That is very telling as it turns out.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Well the first hint as to the solution to that problem -- is that BobRyan never claimed that people do not have the Holy Spirit until they are baptized.
1. The lost have the Holy Spirit "Convicting them" as we see in John 16 -- while lost.
2. The born again Christian in Romans 10 simply believes and confesses -- that happens before Baptism. The new birth is from the Holy Spirit - so also is the Romans 2 circumcision of the heart where the Law of God is written on the tablets of the human heart as promised in the New Covenant of the Old Testament -- all that is pre-baptism.
Where you came up with the BobRyan does not believe a person has the Holy Spirit until they are baptized idea - is beyond me. But it is a good story
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The list of texts in HP's post speak of "endurance" and perseverance -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1505120&postcount=98
Failing to endure in being saved -is to change from being saved to being lost.
Failing to endure or persever in being lost -- is to change from being lost to being saved.
You cannot spin that around to "failing to endure in being saved - is to never have been saved and thus to never have failed to endure in being saved".
It would be like saying "failing to stay aloft in a jet aircraft is never to have left the ground". It is nonsensical.
in Christ,
Bob
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1505120&postcount=98
Failing to endure in being saved -is to change from being saved to being lost.
Failing to endure or persever in being lost -- is to change from being lost to being saved.
You cannot spin that around to "failing to endure in being saved - is to never have been saved and thus to never have failed to endure in being saved".
It would be like saying "failing to stay aloft in a jet aircraft is never to have left the ground". It is nonsensical.
in Christ,
Bob
Respectfully Bob:
The "staying" power is not in the "clay" or "man", but in God.
To "not endure" and connect it to the "saved" is to negate the omnipotence of God, and also His complete ability to secure our salvation.
Also to lose one's salvation due to neglect, lack of endurance is to change the parameters of what salvation is.
Salvation is a 1. The Old Adamic Nature(identity) is put to death by the power of God, as we are co-crucified, co-buried, co-raised up, and finally co-seated with Christ in the heavenlies. 2. Christ's crucified and glorified life enters our soul at the time of salvation, and displaces the Adamic nature with His sinless nature. 3. "But We Still Sin!!!" Easily answered.....We contend not with the Old Adamic nature that has only one proclivity, and that's to sin and work against God, but we do have our unredeemable flesh or "Earth Suit" still covering us until the we get those glorified bodies. 4. With our redeemed souls still resides the "programming/memories/habits/proclivities" that were part and parcel of our pre-salvation life when we were part of the "lost". Now that we have lost the Old Nature, we still must contend with the old programming of years and years of unGodly life/habits/ways, with the commands of Romans 12 that start right out with the exhortation to "renew" one's mind with the "washing" of the Word. The Word displaces the "lies" that we previously lived by.
Here is the "corker". When we receive salvation/Christ's life, we receive His life that endured crucifixion, burial, ressurrection, and heavenly ascension +or - 2,000 years ago. I.E. within our saved souls we have partaken and joined with Christ in His life that has no beginning, nor an end..........It is eternally infinite both in the past/present, and future. It also indured Calvary, enjoyed ressurrection, and was glorified in ascension.
Coursing in our soul is the a life that in not earth bound, but is seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.
The Flesh: This is our foe along with Satan and his principalities, and also the "ways" of the Old Adamic life. This is why we "soldier on" in the strength of Christ.
We are not expected to endure without the empowerment of God. When it "appears" that we have failed to do so, then we must look at Pauls statement where this "thorn" in the flesh just kept him frustrated as he emplored God to remove it. God did not remove that impediment to Pauls walk as a Christian. Paul finally got the "light". God was convincing he/Paul that this thorn was for a reason. It kept Paul in a state of "self/weakness", and forced in to his knees in proclamation "When I am weak He is strong!".
As I mentioned in earlier posts, be very very careful in attempting to discern another's spiritual condition in regards to their being saved or not, or that they've somehow overpowered God's sheepfold and snuck away into lost-abandon and hell.
Also, mentioned in the Pauline epistles is the very clear statement that when believers continue to sin, and make public embarrassment of the work of salvation in their lives by their God, that at God's discretion He may take them home. Yes, their works may in most part be wood, hay and stubble, but never the less they are still His.
Because of this human freewill that is not hindered but is a means of magnifying God's grace in the human race before the myriads of unsaved of the world, it goes only so far.
Do not let every ill-appearance/act of a person who claims to be saved to be an indication of one walking away from the sheepfold. Remember again, that salvation is not merely an act of choosing, and holding-onto the One who does the saving, but is a bonifide "transformation" of the soul from top to bottom. Yet, we still have our original minds, along with our original sources of emotions, and of course our human wills. Within that those elements lies the throne-room of the human soul. There is but one throne at the center of the mind/will and emotions, and it either has Christ sitting upon it or ourselves. When us Christians live in the flesh, we have displaced Christ off of the throne of our soul and placed ourselves. Now we start to go into legalism, dead works, and basically agree with the antagonist of our souls, namely Satan himself. Our unredeemed flesh allows access of the enemy of our souls to our mind, emotions, and even the stifling of our wills to some extent. Paul's weakness, that allowed God to take the helm of His life, is of the same category. We as Christians will never, never walk in obedience to the Spirit that endwells us 100% of the time. What should happen as we endure this world, and the ugly works of the flesh and what they bring upon us, is an ever-lessening of these bouts where we are living fleshly. The "endurance" is the work on our part through cooperation with God's Truth, and the empowerment of the H.S. to "choose" or exercise our "wills" in conjunction with said-truth, and not the old ways still imbedded in our grey matter.
Paul's Roman's 7 struggle would have to be defined by the "lose one's salvation" group as a description of Paul the Apostle falling in and out of salvation, wouldn't it? Afterall, in his Roman's 7 discourse he laments that fact that he does the things that he shouldn't, and doesn't do the things he should..........."What a wretch I am!!!!"
This is the laments of a fully secure, saved, human being! He is having an internal struggle with who will take the helm or throne of his soul. Paul is helping us fellow Christians to define where the problem lies when we do things that make us appear to be "lost" and not "saved".
Remember that the conditon, "flesh" as used properly in the KJV, and NASB, is not origined in the Adamic Nature. That nature is gone.
To say that we can fall out of God's secure sheepfold, is to negate God's staying power to hold us, though as little dumb lambs we will wander, despite our "Shepherd's" exhortations to stay with the flock and listen to His words, and obey.
Those that appear lost and fallen from salvation, are no different that that sheep that gets caught in the briars and brambles of the thorn bush, yet is still one of His.
Adoptions are irrevocable with God. God never revoked His union with Israel, but He did exact a lot of discipline upon it, didn't He?
When He says in Revelations, "I never knew you", that means that there "never" was a relationship from the start. I.E. we have here human beings who appeared to be His, but delusionally, ignorantly, or through willfull deception, were not his.
"Of His" is a key two-word phrase........It means to be part and partial or part of Him. When the scripture says that they weren't, yet followed Him, this distinctly shows the precipice between them and Him, and the relationship of true believers with Him.
The "staying" power is not in the "clay" or "man", but in God.
To "not endure" and connect it to the "saved" is to negate the omnipotence of God, and also His complete ability to secure our salvation.
Also to lose one's salvation due to neglect, lack of endurance is to change the parameters of what salvation is.
Salvation is a 1. The Old Adamic Nature(identity) is put to death by the power of God, as we are co-crucified, co-buried, co-raised up, and finally co-seated with Christ in the heavenlies. 2. Christ's crucified and glorified life enters our soul at the time of salvation, and displaces the Adamic nature with His sinless nature. 3. "But We Still Sin!!!" Easily answered.....We contend not with the Old Adamic nature that has only one proclivity, and that's to sin and work against God, but we do have our unredeemable flesh or "Earth Suit" still covering us until the we get those glorified bodies. 4. With our redeemed souls still resides the "programming/memories/habits/proclivities" that were part and parcel of our pre-salvation life when we were part of the "lost". Now that we have lost the Old Nature, we still must contend with the old programming of years and years of unGodly life/habits/ways, with the commands of Romans 12 that start right out with the exhortation to "renew" one's mind with the "washing" of the Word. The Word displaces the "lies" that we previously lived by.
Here is the "corker". When we receive salvation/Christ's life, we receive His life that endured crucifixion, burial, ressurrection, and heavenly ascension +or - 2,000 years ago. I.E. within our saved souls we have partaken and joined with Christ in His life that has no beginning, nor an end..........It is eternally infinite both in the past/present, and future. It also indured Calvary, enjoyed ressurrection, and was glorified in ascension.
Coursing in our soul is the a life that in not earth bound, but is seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.
The Flesh: This is our foe along with Satan and his principalities, and also the "ways" of the Old Adamic life. This is why we "soldier on" in the strength of Christ.
We are not expected to endure without the empowerment of God. When it "appears" that we have failed to do so, then we must look at Pauls statement where this "thorn" in the flesh just kept him frustrated as he emplored God to remove it. God did not remove that impediment to Pauls walk as a Christian. Paul finally got the "light". God was convincing he/Paul that this thorn was for a reason. It kept Paul in a state of "self/weakness", and forced in to his knees in proclamation "When I am weak He is strong!".
As I mentioned in earlier posts, be very very careful in attempting to discern another's spiritual condition in regards to their being saved or not, or that they've somehow overpowered God's sheepfold and snuck away into lost-abandon and hell.
Also, mentioned in the Pauline epistles is the very clear statement that when believers continue to sin, and make public embarrassment of the work of salvation in their lives by their God, that at God's discretion He may take them home. Yes, their works may in most part be wood, hay and stubble, but never the less they are still His.
Because of this human freewill that is not hindered but is a means of magnifying God's grace in the human race before the myriads of unsaved of the world, it goes only so far.
Do not let every ill-appearance/act of a person who claims to be saved to be an indication of one walking away from the sheepfold. Remember again, that salvation is not merely an act of choosing, and holding-onto the One who does the saving, but is a bonifide "transformation" of the soul from top to bottom. Yet, we still have our original minds, along with our original sources of emotions, and of course our human wills. Within that those elements lies the throne-room of the human soul. There is but one throne at the center of the mind/will and emotions, and it either has Christ sitting upon it or ourselves. When us Christians live in the flesh, we have displaced Christ off of the throne of our soul and placed ourselves. Now we start to go into legalism, dead works, and basically agree with the antagonist of our souls, namely Satan himself. Our unredeemed flesh allows access of the enemy of our souls to our mind, emotions, and even the stifling of our wills to some extent. Paul's weakness, that allowed God to take the helm of His life, is of the same category. We as Christians will never, never walk in obedience to the Spirit that endwells us 100% of the time. What should happen as we endure this world, and the ugly works of the flesh and what they bring upon us, is an ever-lessening of these bouts where we are living fleshly. The "endurance" is the work on our part through cooperation with God's Truth, and the empowerment of the H.S. to "choose" or exercise our "wills" in conjunction with said-truth, and not the old ways still imbedded in our grey matter.
Paul's Roman's 7 struggle would have to be defined by the "lose one's salvation" group as a description of Paul the Apostle falling in and out of salvation, wouldn't it? Afterall, in his Roman's 7 discourse he laments that fact that he does the things that he shouldn't, and doesn't do the things he should..........."What a wretch I am!!!!"
This is the laments of a fully secure, saved, human being! He is having an internal struggle with who will take the helm or throne of his soul. Paul is helping us fellow Christians to define where the problem lies when we do things that make us appear to be "lost" and not "saved".
Remember that the conditon, "flesh" as used properly in the KJV, and NASB, is not origined in the Adamic Nature. That nature is gone.
To say that we can fall out of God's secure sheepfold, is to negate God's staying power to hold us, though as little dumb lambs we will wander, despite our "Shepherd's" exhortations to stay with the flock and listen to His words, and obey.
Those that appear lost and fallen from salvation, are no different that that sheep that gets caught in the briars and brambles of the thorn bush, yet is still one of His.
Adoptions are irrevocable with God. God never revoked His union with Israel, but He did exact a lot of discipline upon it, didn't He?
When He says in Revelations, "I never knew you", that means that there "never" was a relationship from the start. I.E. we have here human beings who appeared to be His, but delusionally, ignorantly, or through willfull deception, were not his.
"Of His" is a key two-word phrase........It means to be part and partial or part of Him. When the scripture says that they weren't, yet followed Him, this distinctly shows the precipice between them and Him, and the relationship of true believers with Him.
I haven't read through the whole thread and do not know if this has been brought up, but salvation is described as a circumcision of the heart. Last time I checked a circumcision was permanent
Having said that, I do believe the "father of lies" can deceive a true believer into thinking like a reprobate. There are many warning to not suppress the Spirit, so it is quite clear a believer can do just that. I did that very thing for much of my life, from my early teens into my early 30's after being born again and bearing fruit from 7 until my early teens. There was no question I was saved then, as those years walking away from God had much chastisement and the conviction of the Holy Spirit...I just chose to live for myself. I can see someone like Charles Templeton (avowed atheist currently, Billy Graham friend and crusade preacher initially) falling into this camp. There was fruit at one point, but he gave into a lie after seeing a picture on a National Geographic magazine of a mother holding her dead child due to no rain. I believe satan used that to completely and utterly deceive him.
Having said that, I do believe the "father of lies" can deceive a true believer into thinking like a reprobate. There are many warning to not suppress the Spirit, so it is quite clear a believer can do just that. I did that very thing for much of my life, from my early teens into my early 30's after being born again and bearing fruit from 7 until my early teens. There was no question I was saved then, as those years walking away from God had much chastisement and the conviction of the Holy Spirit...I just chose to live for myself. I can see someone like Charles Templeton (avowed atheist currently, Billy Graham friend and crusade preacher initially) falling into this camp. There was fruit at one point, but he gave into a lie after seeing a picture on a National Geographic magazine of a mother holding her dead child due to no rain. I believe satan used that to completely and utterly deceive him.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
God is not the one at fault when someone fails to persevere.
Bob said:
Notice that the texts in that list are not texts where God is writing himself notes - to remind himself that he needs to cause those who are saved to continue to perservere in staying saved.
The spin you offer is of the form "if you notice the details in those texts about what happens if you fail to persevere -- then you are dishonoring God".
It just makes no sense.
The Bible model is always to "notice the details".
That list of texts provides a lot of "Bible details" to be noticed.
The first part of your statement is true. The second part is fiction.
Paul never identified his thorn in the flesh as "failing to persevere in the faith".
You have no Bible support at all for that idea.
However in places like Matt 18 we see "forgiveness revoked".
In Places like John 15:1-5 we see "branches IN ME" that are removed and cast into the fire.
In Romans 11 we see that branches in Christ are removed due to unbelief - but as Paul state in that chapter "God is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in UNBELIEF".
There is no post here about "diserning another's spiritual condition" aside from your own mention of it.
When you remove Christ - you remove salvation.
There is no such thing as a Christless salvation.
The texts show that only those who persevere firm unto the end are saved in the end.
That list of Bible texts is hard to ignore.
Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
in Christ,
Bob
Unfortunately it's not that simple. Satan is called a deceiver, and when Eve was deceived...if you remember, God did not hold her accountable of the sin since she was deceived. This very thing happens every day with believers, satan is not called the father of lies for no reason. He can (and does) deceive true believers into many heinous things every day. Look at what he did to David, the "apple of God's eye". Don't dismiss satan's influence.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I think it is just that simple.
...then you must believe our salvation is conditioned on us persevering. I'll put my trust in Christ.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
My trust is in Christ and I believe in the Perserverance of the saints. Just like Peter said. "You have the words that give life to whom can we turn?" Once you tasted so great a salvation why go anywhere else? So I'll perservere by the power of Christ. simple.
You sound like you just want to sit in a big comfy couch and sit for the ride.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I do not remember that. All sin is in a manner deception. Just because one is deceived is no sign one is not held accountable or responsible for that sin.
I once posted an illustration about two boys. One tried to get the other to cooperate in a robbery. The one boy at first declined but after the one orchestrating the robbery convinced him that they would not get caught, and that they would live on easy street the rest of their lives, he gave into the others demands and went with him to perpetrate the robbery.
Shortly there after they were caught for their crime and stood before the judge. The one boy complained that he was in fact deceived into believing they would not get caught. What do you believe justice would do in such a case? Was the defense of deception plausible to eliminate responsibility for the crime?
Where does Scripture ever state that Eve was not held accountable for her actions as sin?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What is in your makeup? Lies, deceit, sin or what ? We are told almost on a daily basis that believers cannot help but lie and sin, so is it sin or what that is in the believers makeup?
That makes me think. If a believer is a liar, as even a moderator on this list insists, could one calling himself a believer be in reality the liar that he insists he is and as such deceived as to his standing before God?
If our makeup is basically excreting "lies, deceit, sin or what" then apparently you believe that the Old Adamic Nature is still alive and well in the New believer. Our "make up" is what we are..........right? Our actual identity......right? Interestingly, the Nature of Christ has displaced the Old Adamic Nature in the saved soul. If we have both Christ's new Adamic nature plus the old fallen/lost Adamic nature within us as beleivers, we will live a most miserable existence, not unlike having a dual personalities........one Godly, one anti-Godly. Schizoid comes to mind.
Galatians 2:20 How about telling us what "died" in that verse..........Something did, and it is written in the "present" tense, not future tense. Check it out.
I.E. you've negated Galatians 2:20 and a number of other verses from the N.T.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I am simply parroting what is often taught by some on this discussion list.
HP: You call the nature that is within us whatever you so desire, but it is true that one born again can indeed turn to sin. If there remains no nature to sin, what could possible influence one to sin? What does the apostle James tell us?
Are you going to tell us that one can live free from sin in this present world as believers? Just wondering.
That's hardly my take on it...and besides, when there are times in your life when you won't persevere, are you implying Christ is less powerful during those times?
From who did sin enter into the world, from Adam or Eve? Scripture states Adam.
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