Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?

[BobRyan]

It just makes me think of all the Catholic statements that guys like you and I bring up to Catholics to show them what their church has said and you have catholics saying "no, no you are misunderstanding what it means". One should not need an interpreter for statements of faith.

And I know one SDA preacher who thinks it is saying what it says.

:jesus:

I am all for improved communication.

However - I know of no SDA believer and also no SDA doctrinal statement that says that the New Birth does not happen until water baptism OR that says the New Birth is not a work of the Holy Spirit.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

I am all for improved communication.

However - I know of no SDA believer and also no SDA doctrinal statement that says that the New Birth does not happen until water baptism OR that says the New Birth is not a work of the Holy Spirit.

in Christ,

Bob

I did some scanning around the internet to see what other sda sites were saying on the subject of water baptism.

Here are some readings;

1. Death to sin. .................In the apostolic church the call to repentance included the call to baptism (Acts 2:38). Thus baptism also marks true repentance. Believers die to their transgressing of the law and abtain forgiveness of sin through the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ. The baptismal ceremony is a demonstration of an inner cleansing—the washing away of sins that have been confessed. ( http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-14.htm )

There are many statements on this site that basically say "no baptism, no true believer".

2. Alive to God. Christ's resurrection power goes to work in our lives. It enables us to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4)—dead now to sin, "but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). We testify that the only hope of a life victorious over the old nature is in the grace of a risen Lord who has provided a new spiritual life through the energizing power of the Holy Spirit. This new life lifts us to a higher plateau of human experience, giving us new values, aspirations, and desires that focus on a commitment to Jesus Christ. We are new disciples of our Saviour, and baptism is the sign of our discipleship. ( http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-14.htm )

Wouldn't you agree that Christ's resurrection power goes to work in our lives the moment of the new birth and not at the moment of baptism?

Symbol of Entrance Into the Church. As a sign of a person's regeneration or new birth (John 3:3, 5), baptism also marks that person's entrance into Christ's spiritual kingdom.20 Since it unites the new believer to Christ, it always functions as the door to the church. Through baptism the Lord adds the new disciples to the body of believers—His body, the church (Acts 2:41, 47; 1 Cor. 12:13). Then they are members of God's family. One cannot be baptized without joining the church family. ( http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-14.htm )

This is saying that "baptism" unites the new believer to Christ and adds the new disciples to the body of believers-His body. Now either one is added to "His body" at the new birth or one is added at "baptism". Which is it?

And there are numerious contradicting statements in this site. So there are SDA folks out there who do not believe as you do on baptism. This SDA site believes that baptism adds a person to Christ and you believe the new birth is what adds a person to Christ. We don't get added twice, right?

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver, do you even know what this thread is entitled? It is not about SDA and baptism is it?

 

[steaver]

Steaver, do you even know what this thread is entitled? It is not about SDA and baptism is it?

I didn't even know these threads had titles. Where can I find them?

Is this your way of saying "I wish I was a moderator"?

:wavey:

I figured since you and others quit answering questions in this thread that it wouldn't matter to you if I got off topic here.

You would make a good mod. Thanks for the insight.

:jesus:

 

[DHK]

Steaver, do you even know what this thread is entitled? It is not about SDA and baptism is it?

Steaver replied to you:

I didn't even know these threads had titles. Where can I find them?

Is this your way of saying "I wish I was a moderator"?

This reply is very recent.

I replied to you on January 24, and your last post was before that.
Steaver also said:

I figured since you and others quit answering questions in this thread that it wouldn't matter to you if I got off topic here.

I think he's right. Perhaps if you had continued the conversation then you would have a valid point.

 

[BobRyan]

I did some scanning around the internet to see what other sda sites were saying on the subject of water baptism.

Here are some readings;

1. Death to sin. .................In the apostolic church the call to repentance included the call to baptism (Acts 2:38). Thus baptism also marks true repentance. Believers die to their transgressing of the law and abtain forgiveness of sin through the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ. The baptismal ceremony is a demonstration of an inner cleansing—the washing away of sins that have been confessed. ( http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-14.htm )

Here they get the point right about baptism being simply a "ceremony" and outward sign or demonstration - of a inward fact of cleansing that already took place prior to baptism. Still I glad our 28 Fundamental Beliefs statement does not use their exact wording above.

2. Alive to God. Christ's resurrection power goes to work in our lives. It enables us to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4)—dead now to sin, "but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). We testify that the only hope of a life victorious over the old nature is in the grace of a risen Lord who has provided a new spiritual life through the energizing power of the Holy Spirit. This new life lifts us to a higher plateau of human experience, giving us new values, aspirations, and desires that focus on a commitment to Jesus Christ. We are new disciples of our Saviour, and baptism is the sign of our discipleship. ( http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-14.htm )

Here again - baptism as the outward SIGN of an existing reality that must have already existed prior to deciding to follow Christ in baptism.

In fact in the SDA system - the newly converted person has already gone through the study of 28 fundamental beliefs where they are repeatedly asked to accept Christ as their savior and be born again -- right there - at the end of almost every lesson.

Then again they are asked to make that decision in a much shorter "baptismal class" series.

They do a much better job making this concept clear in the above quote

Symbol of Entrance Into the Church. As a sign of a person's regeneration or new birth (John 3:3, 5), baptism also marks that person's entrance into Christ's spiritual kingdom.20 Since it unites the new believer to Christ, it always functions as the door to the church. Through baptism the Lord adds the new disciples to the body of believers—His body, the church (Acts 2:41, 47; 1 Cor. 12:13). Then they are members of God's family. One cannot be baptized without joining the church family. ( http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-14.htm )

Here again they emphasize the act of formally - officially - outwardly joining a local body of believers - and thus recognized as church members by all believers.

Yet still the idea of baptism as a "Sign" - is held high in the definition.

So there are SDA folks out there who do not believe as you do on baptism.

I know of none.

And in spite of people who may not have made the point as clear as they ought - your review has not been able to ignore the fact that this is s ceremony - that is merely an outward sign or symbol of an inward reality.

Since all of these quotes are from a site that is absolutely dedicated to the idea of those 28 doctrinal studies where at almost each lesson - the person is asked to accept Christ as savior - accept the new birth and become right then and there a child of God - your imagining that this is not the case does not help your argument as much as you may have at first supposed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[lori4dogs]

Bob said: "Since all of these quotes are from a site that is absolutely dedicated to the idea of those 28 doctrinal studies where at almost each lesson - the person is asked to accept Christ as savior - accept the new birth and become right then and there a child of God - your imagining that this is not the case does not help your argument as much as you may have at first supposed."

So after each of the 28 doctrinal studies the person re-accepts Christ as Savior? Is this more of a way of affirmation? Making sure they understand the means of their salvation?
Not trying to sidetrack the thread but I'm somewhat confused as to the reason of the repitition.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said: "Since all of these quotes are from a site that is absolutely dedicated to the idea of those 28 doctrinal studies where at almost each lesson - the person is asked to accept Christ as savior - accept the new birth and become right then and there a child of God - your imagining that this is not the case does not help your argument as much as you may have at first supposed."

So after each of the 28 doctrinal studies the person re-accepts Christ as Savior? Is this more of a way of affirmation? Making sure they understand the means of their salvation?

Not trying to sidetrack the thread but I'm somewhat confused as to the reason of the repitition.

Welcome Lori (I was actually hoping you would join one of these threads but especially as it has turned to take a close look at SDA statements on baptism - since I felt kind of bad about having so many "what do you think of the RCC" threads. As I have stated before - Adventists can get some pointy questions asked of them here as well.

Turn about is fair play - and is always welcome in my book!)

Also I think that the "OSAS is not Biblical" argument that HP and I have been making on threads like this one - might make a lot of sense to other groups that are not Calvinist -- such as your own.

Now for your question -- The reason for repetition is two fold.

1. In our SDA bible study plan - we never assume that the reader made a decision in the last lesson for Christ. So we like to give them opportunity after opportunity to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

2. In the Matt 10 and 1Cor 15 model of "I die daily" and "Take up your cross daily" - Adventists consider it right for the saved saint to daily pray a prayer of acceptance and submision to God. It does not mean that such a person "was lost yesterday and saved again this morning" -- rather it is acceptance of the Colossians 2 statement "As you have receieved Christ Jesus so WALK in Him" - in the case of the saved saint praying that kind of prayer -- that is of the form "Lord Jesus I accept you as my Lord and Savior. I place all my sins at the foot of your cross and claim your blood for the forgiveness of my sins". It is perfectly fitting for the born-again saved saint to pray such a prayer daily. So also can the lost sinner be encouraged to pray such a prayer.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver replied to you:

This reply is very recent.

I replied to you on January 24, and your last post was before that.
Steaver also said:

I think he's right. Perhaps if you had continued the conversation then you would have a valid point.

This thread is supposed to be about the real risk of a Gal 5, Romans 11, Matt 18 style "falling from grace" and "forgivness revoked" for the believer.

That discussion has far more details to be hashed out between oppossing points of view - than does the recent discussion on "how to tweak Adventism's presentation of the subject of believer's baptism".

In my responses to that lesser subject - I don't mean to give the impression that any SDA that comes up with a domain name called SDANET is by that act -- infallible or that they have no further need to improve the clarity of their prose.

I am all for improved clarity.

In Adventism we do have very active debates about the sinful nature of Christ (some take HPs point of view and others do not) and we also have very active debates on what is going on at the end of Rev 15 and what is going on in Romans 2 -- (as just a few tiny examples) -- but you simply don't find any traffic inside the SDA church supporting the idea that it is only at baptism that saints are "born again" or that it is only at baptism that the Holy Spirit enters the life etc.

There is literally no debate at all that such ideas might be the case.

So Steaver is welcome to his posts on "tweaking and improving" the way "believer's baptism" is presented by Adventists - but in agreement with HP's point -- I think that subject is incredibly "minor" as compared to the actual title of this thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

John 10:5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice. A TRUE believer has a lie detector....the Holy Spirit who is the spirit of truth.

The Title of the thread: Can a True Believer Turn Away from the Faith?
In post #7 on the first page is Jedi Knight's answer above.
I think it is a good one.

 

[BobRyan]

1. John 10 does not say "will never".

2. Matt 18 explicitly shows the fully forgiven who then TURN and have forgiveness revoked.

3. Ezek 18 shows the same thing.

4. John 15 shows "branches IN ME" that are later removed from Christ and thrown into the fire at death.

5. Romans 11 shows the same thing with the Jews of whom Paul says that God is "Able to graft them back in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief". There Paul argues that they were REMOVED for "unbelief" and that we who are saved saints should "FEAR" for "IF God did not spare them - neithe will He spare you".

Paul points out in Romans 11 that we "stand only by our faith" and that this motive of FEAR based on looking at the example of those who were removed -- is instructive and motivational for those of us who are still IN Christ and ARE standing by Faith.

===============


How very different those chapters would read if the intent was to say "NO one IS EVER REMOVED once you are a branch IN Christ standing by faith there is NO worries. No need to fear. No need to see the example of others who are not IN Christ as if that is some kind of warning to you about the danger or risk of being removed or the risk of falling".

Basically the OSAS position argues and exactly opposing doctrine to the Bible doctrine on perseverance and the motivation to fear the fall.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

1. John 10 does not say "will never".

What does Jesus say in John 10?

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Concerning believers he says:
1. They are my sheep. It shows possession. He is not going to throw them away. They are too valuable; He paid the price of His blood for them.

2. He knows them. Why would he discard that which he knows? People don't sever relations with their "brothers," "friends," "children," etc. all terms which are used by Jesus in relation to those that believe on him.

3. They follow him. This is a characteristic of a true believer in Christ--one who has eternal life.

4. I give unto them eternal life. Now be honest. Does Jesus lie? Eternal means eternal. If eternal could stop it would be temporary. This is an irrefutable argument against one who believes they can lose their salvation. Either he has given us eternal salvation or he has lied. It is that simple. How can this point be refuted?

5. They shall never perish. Bob castigates me because of my grammatical mistake when quoting from memory. Tell me Bob, is there any difference in meaning between "will never" and "shall never"?

6. No man shall pluck them out of my Father's hand. This is an emphatic promise that strengthens the promise of Jesus. If the OSAS promise given by Jesus isn't good enough for you then Jesus emphasizes it again saying if you don't believe me, my Father won't allow any of them to perish. They can't be plucked out of my Father's hand.

7. Again, he is emphatic about his father: "No man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." What a tremendous two-fold promise concerning His Father's protection for His disciples.

8. If that still wasn't good enough he then declares his deity be telling his disciples "I and my Father are one." He makes himself equal to God. The Jews understood exactly what he meant as they tried to stone him to death for the sin of blasphemy in that he made himself equal to God.

This is one of the strongest passages in the Bible, an irrefutable one, concerning the eternal security of the believer. To deny it would necessitate calling the integrity of the Lord Jesus Christ in question.

 

[Jedi Knight]

I know that the objection would be "But We Have Free Will!". Yes we can run in the house at will but we still are in the Fathers house under His rule. If you are a believer in Jesus and are born again you were raised up with Christ and seated in the Heavenlies. Do you really have "unlimited" free will?? Ask Jonah how far he got under free will trying to run!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Jedi Knight
John 10:5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice. A TRUE believer has a lie detector....the Holy Spirit who is the spirit of truth.

1. John 10 does not say "will never".

2. Matt 18 explicitly shows the fully forgiven who then TURN and have forgiveness revoked.

3. Ezek 18 shows the same thing.

4. John 15 shows "branches IN ME" that are later removed from Christ and thrown into the fire at death.

5. Romans 11 shows the same thing with the Jews of whom Paul says that God is "Able to graft them back in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief". There Paul argues that they were REMOVED for "unbelief" and that we who are saved saints should "FEAR" for "IF God did not spare them - neithe will He spare you".

Paul points out in Romans 11 that we "stand only by our faith" and that this motive of FEAR based on looking at the example of those who were removed -- is instructive and motivational for those of us who are still IN Christ and ARE standing by Faith.

===============


How very different those chapters would read if the intent was to say "NO one IS EVER REMOVED once you are a branch IN Christ standing by faith there is NO worries. No need to fear. No need to see the example of others who are not IN Christ as if that is some kind of warning to you about the danger or risk of being removed or the risk of falling".

Basically the OSAS position argues and exactly opposing doctrine to the Bible doctrine on perseverance and the motivation to fear the fall.

in Christ,

Bob

What does Jesus say in John 10?

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


5. They shall never perish. Bob castigates me because of my grammatical mistake when quoting from memory. Tell me Bob, is there any difference in meaning between "will never" and "shall never"?

There is no "will never perish" statement in Jedi's quote. I was responding to Jedi's actual statement "they will never follow a stranger"

My point was just that there is no "will never follow a stranger" statement found in John 10.

And then of course - - I added those "other points" listed above.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I know that the objection would be "But We Have Free Will!". Yes we can run in the house at will but we still are in the Fathers house under His rule.

That is not how it worked out for Lucifer.

That is not how it worked out for Adam.

That is not how it worked out in Romans 11 for the Jews that "were removed for unbelief" but as Paul notes God is "able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not continue in UNBELIEF"

Free will is written all over those examples.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: 4. I give unto them eternal life. Now be honest. Does Jesus lie? Eternal means eternal. If eternal could stop it would be temporary. This is an irrefutable argument against one who believes they can lose their salvation. Either he has given us eternal salvation or he has lied. It is that simple. How can this point be refuted?

HP: Your argument here is clearly suggests or implies two things. First. if eternal life can be revoked, God is a liar. 2. The knowledge DHK has of the eternal life God has promised is infallible. If anyone is in error, God would have to be the one.

The fact is, you have no irrefutable argument as many have pointed out. Bob Ryan’s argument, just to name one, is sound and Biblical which clearly refutes that position. It certainly did not work that way for Lucifer or Adam and Eve. Bob also makes mention of the Jews mentioned in Romans 11 as well, and it certainly did not work that way for them either. One would have to overlook and ignore warning after warning to take such a position as you hold to DHK.

The mere fact that eternal life is conditioned upon us running the race in obedience is clear evidence from Scripture your theory is in error, yet you will not even consider God in His Sovereignty to be well able to establish whatever conditions He so desires upon His gift. DHK's idea of a gift overrules even God's Soverignty. Wow.

It is DHK’s way or God is a liar according to DHK. I cannot think of a more arrogant position to take. I am certain you throw in that remark to give your idea credence in your own mind, but you well may be heaping condemnation upon your own head in the end. You would do well to consider the clear possibility (and in my estimation probability) that it may well be DHK in the error and not God.

 

[DHK]

HP: Your argument here is clearly suggests or implies two things. First. if eternal life can be revoked, God is a liar. 2. The knowledge DHK has of the eternal life God has promised is infallible. If anyone is in error, God would have to be the one.

That is right. If eternal life can be revoked then God has failed to keep his promise. It is that simple. What don't you get? Eternal means eternal. If eternal should stop at any time it would not be eternal any more would it? The very definition of the word refutes each and every argument that you put forward. It proves that there is another answer to your arguments, which of course there is. Eternal means eternal, forever. Please explain how eternal means temporal, or else Christ is lying. What other logical conclusion can one come to? That is why the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer is held so dearly by so many. It is Scriptural. Eternal means eternal. Prove that it does not.

2. My knowledge is not infallible; but God's is. Eternal means eternal. I will keep saying that until you learn it. "The gift of God is eternal life" (Rom.6:23). That is a direct quote. If anyone is in error it is those that refuse to believe the very simple truths of Scripture such as Romans 6:23, and that is the infallible truth of God's Word.

The fact is, you have no irrefutable argument as many have pointed out.

I gave you irrefutable arguments many times. No one has refuted them yet. You (they) just go on other rabbit trails. For example, instead of actually trying to refute the argument or evidence that I put forth Bob will go off on some tangent such as "forgiveness revoked," of which the Bible teaches no such thing. There is no such doctrine in the Bible. It is Bob's own made up man-made doctrine. Off to another rabbit trail; but you cannot repudiate the evidence that I have presented can you?

Bob Ryan’s argument, just to name one, is sound and Biblical which clearly refutes that position.

It isn't. It is full of holes.

It certainly did not work that way for Lucifer or Adam and Eve.

What promises were they given, and on what basis? Have you not read the first three chapters of the Bible regarding the creation of Adam and Eve, their temptation by Satan, and then the Fall? You honestly don't know what happened then?
They had their chance. They could choose eternal life or death. They chose death. God provided a sacrifice for them. They were reconciled to God. But the consequences of their sin have and will affect the world and mankind until Christ comes again.
Lucifer chose death (separation from God) over eternal life. His sin (of pride) has separated him from God for all eternity. That is death. Death (in the Bible) is always defined as separation.
Salvation is not based on continued obedience. It is a choice. Choose Christ or reject him. Like marriage: you can choose to marry or refuse. But once you are married you don't go back and say I have made a mistake. I don't believe that it is in God's will for divorce. And I don't believe God divorces his children or more aptly his bride (which we become a part of when we trust Christ).

Bob also makes mention of the Jews mentioned in Romans 11 as well, and it certainly did not work that way for them either.

Bob took Scripture out of context. Romans 11 does not apply to us today. Bob failed to mention Rom.11:26--So then all Israel shall be saved.

One would have to overlook and ignore warning after warning to take such a position as you hold to DHK.

You mean to ignore promise after promise that tells the believer he has eternal life when he is saved. How do you ignore that. You ignore it by taking Scripture after Scripture out of context and twisting the true meaning of it, which some here are very adept at.

The mere fact that eternal life is conditioned upon us running the race in obedience is clear evidence from Scripture your theory is in error,

Your statement is error in and of itself. How can you state such false statements without backing them up.

yet you will not even consider God in His Sovereignty to be well able to establish whatever conditions He so desires upon His gift.

God has already established in his word that his gift has no conditions. Why don't you believe him? This is really amazing!!

It is DHK’s way or God is a liar according to DHK.

You snide remarks and personal attacks are unwarranted.
God keeps his promises in His Word. If you say He doesn't then it is you that at least infer that he is lying or does not keep his promises. I have maintained that position from the beginning and have not wavered from it. But now you are defeated in your debate and resort to name-calling. Typical!

I cannot think of a more arrogant position to take.

Who is the one being arrogant? Look in the mirror, or even better look at the words that you are posting.

I am certain you throw in that remark to give your idea credence in your own mind, but you well may be heaping condemnation upon your own head in the end.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--I don't face any condemnation. I believe in eternal security. It is you that is unsure of your salvation.

Romans 14:23... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
--You don't have the faith that your salvation is secure in Christ. The Bible indicates that even that is a sinful position to take.

You would do well to consider the clear possibility (and in my estimation probability) that it may well be DHK in the error and not God.

I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

But you are not persuaded, are you?

 

[ccrobinson]

I hesitate to bring this up, because it's likely to lead HP down another rabbit trail, but it deserves to be mentioned.

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

There's that pesky eternal word again.

Through John, God tells us that we can know we have eternal life. If eternal doesn't mean eternal, how can we possibly know we have it or not? If we can lose our salvation, how can we ever know that we have it? If God tells us we can know it, then he has to be lying to also say we can lose it, doesn't he?

 

[Jedi Knight]

There is no "will never perish" statement in Jedi's quote. I was responding to Jedi's actual statement "they will never follow a stranger"

My point was just that there is no "will never follow a stranger" statement found in John 10.

And then of course - - I added those "other points" listed above.

in Christ,

Bob

You should read it out loud for the whole class then. What does John 10:5 say?

 

[BobRyan]

The fact is, you have no irrefutable argument as many have pointed out. Bob Ryan’s argument, just to name one, is sound and Biblical which clearly refutes that position. It certainly did not work that way for Lucifer or Adam and Eve. Bob also makes mention of the Jews mentioned in Romans 11 as well, and it certainly did not work that way for them either. One would have to overlook and ignore warning after warning to take such a position as you hold to DHK.

Bob took Scripture out of context. Romans 11 does not apply to us today. Bob failed to mention Rom.11:26--So then all Israel shall be saved.

There is a paucity of logic in your solution DHK - that is more evident to the unbiased objective reader than you might have at first supposed.

Notice how Paul makes the text directly applicable to new testament Christians - when we read the text itself? In fact he makes it apply to the christians of HIS day and to ALL time right down to the END of time -- saying that IN THIS WAY "all Israel" is saved. (With the CONTEXT for Israel being stated explicitly in Romans 9 "They are NOT ALL Israel who are descendants from Abraham" and saying in Romans 2 "He is NOT a Jew who is one OUTWARDLY")

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to natureinto a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles [b]has come in[/b];
26and so all Israel will be saved[/b]; just as it is written,