A Doctrine of Translation

[SavedByGrace]

It is interesting that this verse uses all three of the NT words for miracle: "signs" (Greek semeion), "wonders" (teras), and "miracles" (dunamis, "powers"). Then, only after that, are gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned. In other words, there are many gifts of the Holy Spirit that are providential, not miraculous. In other words, the Holy Spirit gives many gifts through DNA, rather than through miracles. I believe that God has gifted me in the area of translation by my DNA, rather than by some miracle. I believe that many of the gifts of 1 Cor. 12 and Rom. 12 are simply God's providence, not miraculous, working in such a way that His purposes are done through gifted individuals.

True, but it is very possible that the Lord miraculously also helped you with your translating "gift", and give you the desire to do His work? This is true in my case, and more importantly, William Tyndale, one of the Greatest Bible translator's the world have ever known, when he was burned at the stake on October 6, 1536, he cried out, "Lord, open the King of England's eyes!" Only 3 years later, King Henry VIII published the Great Bible, from Tyndales own work, which was also used for the 1611 KJV! This is God's providence, and is using people like your good self to do His Great works!

 

[John of Japan]

Well, folks, I have to finish grading my Greek 101 test. You know, some of that "specialized knowledge" that Van mistakenly thinks of as Gnosticism, which then allows my students to actually translate the Bible. They were excited to be able to translate in their homework the other day John 14:6. It will take 42 class hours for them to finish this class, and at least 100 more of study, and this is only Greek 101. So then, next semester will be the same, then they will have 2nd year Greek with more of the same. (Unlike in some Bible colleges, all of our students are required to take Greek, men and women both.) Thus, each student who graduates here having done well in Greek will have put around 600 hours of study into the efforyt.

To make "A's" all the way through, as I predict several of my students will, is an incredible accomplishment. If the one young lady I see as gifted does that, then goes on to take tens of thousands of hours to learn an Indian language, and many years to translate the Bible into a language in India that has never had the Bible, that will be incredible and awesome! It will be worthy of our highest praise. Why someone would call that "Gnostic" (an evil religion), or denigrate that, or think that such an accomplishment is possible without these efforts, is a total mystery to me.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Well, folks, I have to finish grading my Greek 101 test. You know, some of that "specialized knowledge" that Van mistakenly thinks of as Gnosticism, which then allows my students to actually translate the Bible. They were excited to be able to translate in their homework the other day John 14:6. It will take 42 class hours for them to finish this class, and at least 100 more of study, and this is only Greek 101. So then, next semester will be the same, then they will have 2nd year Greek with more of the same. (Unlike in some Bible colleges, all of our students are required to take Greek, men and women both.) Thus, each student who graduates here having done well in Greek will have put around 600 hours of study into the efforyt.

To make "A's" all the way through, as I predict several of my students will, is an incredible accomplishment. If the one young lady I see as gifted does that, then goes on to take tens of thousands of hours and many years to translate the Bible into a language in India that has never had the Bible, that will be awesome! It will be worthy of our highest praise. Why someone would call that "Gnostic" (an evil religion), or denigrate that, or think that such an accomplishment is possible without these efforts, is a total mystery to me.

May our Great God richly bless you, dear brother as you endeavour in His work and for His Glory. Gloria in Excelsis Deo!

 

[John of Japan]

True, but it is very possible that the Lord miraculously also helped you with your translating "gift", and give you the desire to do His work? This is true in my case, and more importantly, William Tyndale, one of the Greatest Bible translator's the world have ever known, when he was burned at the stake on October 6, 1536, he cried out, "Lord, open the King of England's eyes!" Only 3 years later, King Henry VIII published the Great Bible, from Tyndales own work, which was also used for the 1611 KJV! This is God's providence, and is using people like your good self to do His Great works!

You say "miraculously" and then "This is God's providence." I fully believe that it is God's providence, but I have never seen a miracle happen in my translation work. I have seen God's guidance many times, but I don't call that miraculous.

A miracle takes place in a moment of time. It is an event. God's providence is a process, taking time as God works everything out for good (Rom. 8:28).

 

[SavedByGrace]

miracle

I see this when the Lord is the Doer, and we simply fulfil what He desires!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Why someone would call that "Gnostic" (an evil religion), or denigrate that, or think that such an accomplishment is possible without these efforts, is a total mystery to me

some are quite demented!

 

[John of Japan]

You know what, here is just p. 2 of the "Gnostic," specialized knowledge, test for Greek 101 I just gave. (Tough to get the format right here on the BB.) See how you do.

II. Define the following linguistic and grammatical terms (3 pts. each).


16. aspect:______________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________


17. koine (one word):____________________________


18. phoneme:___________________________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________


19. prefix:______________________________________________________________


20. morpheme:_________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________

III. Complete the singular definite article paradigm (2 pts. each).

masc

fem

neut

nom sg

gen sg

dat sg

acc sg



IV. Decline the present active indicative of εἰμι (3 pts. each).

30. I am __________________ 33. We are __________________


31. You are __________________ 34. You (plu.) are __________________


32. He/she/it is __________________ 35. They are __________________


VI. Decline the future active indicative of λυω (3 pts. each).

36. I will loose. __________________ 39. We will loose. __________________


37. You (sing.) will loose. __________________ 40. You (plu.) will loose. _________________


38. He/she/it will loose. ___________________ 41. They will loose. _________________

 

[John of Japan]

I see this when the Lord is the Doer, and we simply fulfil what He desires!

All of the miracles in the Bible were instantaneous events. By that standard, I never saw a miracle in my translation work. The Lifeline Japanese NT took thousands of hours of continuous effort (with the Holy Spirit's help, of course).

 

[OnlyaSinner]

Yes you did!!

I have interviewed people who wanted to be involved in our Japanese translation who should not go near a Bible translation effort. On the other hand, I graded some beginning Greek papers last week, a translation assignment, and marveled at the work of one young lady who shows obvious translation ability. Not coincidentally, she is surrendered to be a missionary to India, where she should have ample opportunity to use her obvious gift of translation ability.​

Thus those without the "gift" should not go near a bible translation effort, like picking the most valid choice, unless the person has the "gift of translation ability." Your words, not mine.

And btw, your name calling also hinders the ministry of Christ.

There seems to be a difference in how one defines "Bible translation effort." IMO, JoJ applied that phrase narrowly: to actually translating the Bible into a different language, while above you use a much broader application, which includes "picking the most valid choice." Neither application seems incorrect, but they're certainly different.

 

[John of Japan]

I just finished grading the test of another young man who may be gifted by God to be a Bible translator. Or this incredible young man may be a skilled exegete some day, or a Greek teacher. He got a perfect grade on this first test, and he's already been asking me if there is a quiz on Wed. (there is). But for any of these tasks God may give him, he needs to work hard, putting in thousands of hours of preparation.

To call this young man "Gnostic" (unbelievers who denied the deity of Christ and thought Satan was equal to God) simply because he is willing to put in the 1000s of hours to become what God wants him to is a terrible and unjust insult.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Or this incredible young man may be a skilled exegete some day, or a Greek teacher

hey, a man after my own heart! May the Lord richly bless and use him for His Glory

 

[Van]

I sat under some of the Old Northern Baptist greats, B. Myron Cedaholm, M. James Hollowood, Richard C. Weeks and Arno Q. Wenigar, Sr. I believe all of them would support JoJ's position.

So they believe only the specially gifted should study to show themselves approved, and share their results with others? I doubt that very much.

 

[Van]

Remember, SbG lives in England. So, he is at least five to eight hours ahead of us.

How many days before we can explode his false claims. One, two? It has already been one.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 5 pm edt/ 2 pm PDT

 

[Squire Robertsson]

How many days before we can explode his false claims. One, two? It has already been one.

We just have to wait on God's Providential timing.

 

[Van]

There seems to be a difference in how one defines "Bible translation effort." IMO, JoJ applied that phrase narrowly: to actually translating the Bible into a different language, while above you use a much broader application, which includes "picking the most valid choice." Neither application seems incorrect, but they're certainly different.

Sorry but sometimes a false premise is run up the flag pole, and if rejected, it is lowered and denied. But lets set that aside, are you willing to deny that only "specially gifted folks" can engage in picking the most valid choice? I deny it, and believe most everybody does. What say you?

 

[Van]

What should be our translation doctrine?

Should we be originalists, seeking to understand what the intended message was to the initial audience? Yes
Should we translate using the word meanings used when written? Yes
Should we strive to preserve the implications provided by the grammar? Yes
Should we alter the message to make it fit better with our presuppositions? Nope.

We have more than two dozen English translations, which sometimes differ in translator choices, and therefore should we seek to determine which choice is best? Of course.

Pay no attention to those who claim they have special knowledge so only the specially gifted can go near any sort of translation study.

 

[Yeshua1]

Proof? Actual quotes?

Doctrinal Error in Thayer's Lexicon | SHARPER IRON

 

[Yeshua1]

Stop lying about me. I have made no claim that "you need a special gift to be able to assess which translation choices are best." My claim is that God gifts translators.

Welcome to the club, as Van bashes we Calvinists, and now you get to join our merry band! Not saying that you are a calvinist, as do not think you are, but you now are on Van "hit list"

 

[Yeshua1]

That observation applies to JOJ, not me. I believe in the priesthood of believers, and that no special knowledge folks, gifted in non-miraculous languages can ban me from expressing my views.

The very idea strikes at the core of baptist beliefs.
About 40% of all Baptist pastors are cessationists. Hardly idiosyncratic.

JoJ does NOT hold to charismatic gifts though, does not state that only the elect can know and discern the scriptures, and you know as much about translation as you do about Calvinism it would seem!