Did Jesus cease being God's Son on the Cross?

[Van]

I am not really sure where, or that, we truely disagree.

I do believe that Jesus lay down His life, but at the same time I believe that He suffered death which was because of our sin.

Jesus laying down His life willingly does nor, IMHO, negate that He was killed (Peter notes this when he says that wicked men killed Jesus). Death entered the world through Adam's and spread to all because all have sinned. I believe Jesus experienced the wages of our sin.

I do not view Jesus' death as paying a penality as much as suffering the wages of sin (sin begats death).

I think it is fait to say that on the cross God was reconciling man (mankind) to Himself and this reconciliation has been accomplished (for mankind, not individual men).

We we can agree on this, Jesus sacrificing His life on the cross provided the means of reconciling the whole of humanity to Himself.

 

[JonC]

Yes, Jon, we all know what you want it to say, but the text just won't yield.

I want it to say exactly what it says.

Post the translation that you are using of Galatians 3:13 which states "God judged Jesus as a sinner".

You can't because your rather than God said it.

So we have a choice....believe God's Word or believe your addition to God's Word.


Man.....I missed you.

 

[JonC]

We we can agree on this, Jesus sacrificing His life on the cross provided the means of reconciling the whole of humanity to Himself.

Yes, we can. This is what it means, IMO, that God was reconciling the world to Himself (mankind) and we have the ministry of reconciliation (urging individuals to be reconciled based on the reconciliation .mankind to God).

 

[Van]

Yes, we can. This is what it means, IMO, that God was reconciling the world to Himself (mankind) and we have the ministry of reconciliation (urging individuals to be reconciled based on the reconciliation .mankind to God).

Again, God is reconciling humanity, and has reconciled those who have received the reconciliation. To claim anyone was reconciled before they received the reconciliation is wrong. Individuals are reconciled when they receive the reconciliation when God transfers that individual spiritually into Christ based on crediting that individual's faith as righteousness. I fear you hold an alternate view.

 

[JonC]

Again, God is reconciling humanity, and has reconciled those who have received the reconciliation. To claim anyone was reconciled before they received the reconciliation is wrong. Individuals are reconciled when they receive the reconciliation when God transfers that individual spiritually into Christ based on crediting that individual's faith as righteousness. I fear you hold an alternate view.

Ummmm.....

I am saying that on the Cross God reconciled humanity (mankind) to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. This did not reconcile people. It is on that basis that men are reconciled to God.

I am not sure why you are talking about people being reconciled before they ate reconciled. That does not make sense to me.

IF God did not reconciled humanity to Himself then it is impossible that individual men be reconciled.

Jesus IS the reconciliation of man and God. It is on this basis that men are reconciled.

 

[Van]

Ummmm.....

I am saying that on the Cross God reconciled humanity (mankind) to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. This did not reconcile people. It is on that basis that men are reconciled to God.

I am not sure why you are talking about people being reconciled before they ate reconciled. That does not make sense to me.

IF God did not reconciled humanity to Himself then it is impossible that individual men be reconciled.

Jesus IS the reconciliation of man and God. It is on this basis that men are reconciled.

Again, we disagree, Jesus becoming the means of reconciliation does not equate with being reconciled.

 

[Aaron]

Post the translation that you are using of Galatians 3:13 which states "God judged Jesus as a sinner".

I did. We don't get to dictate the verbatims. We have to accept these things the way God said them. Why the cross? Why not the sword? Why not a sickness? Or a falling tower in Siloam?

 

[JonC]

I did. We don't get to dictate the verbatims. We have to accept these things the way God said them. Why the cross? Why not the sword? Why not a sickness? Or a falling tower in Siloam?

Exactly - we have to take Scrioture for "what is written", and this is the test of doctrine.

Scripture is objective. Theories are subjective.

Point is nowhere in Scripture does we read that God treated Jesus as a sinner. It just isn't there- verbatim or not.

Why the cross? Because Rome represented the powers of eviland source of unjust oppression to the 1st century Jew. How does Jesus die? By unjust oppression, if the OT is to be believed.


That said, we have to stick to Scripture as common ground.

Jesus' death was unjust. He died by the hands of the wicked. Those who handed Jesus over to be crucified judged Him a sinner and blasphemer, stricken by God.


We can't simply add "and God judged Jesus as a sinner" because Scripture neither states that or provides words that can be interpreted such.


Why a cross? Because the Bible says so.
Why didn't God judge Jesus as a sinner? Because Scripture doesn't say so. Because Scrioture says judging the righteous as unrighteous is an abomination to God. Because Scrioture states that sins cannot be transferred.


Unless there is an actual passage saying that God judged Jesus as a sinner you do not have any ground to stand on exceot with those who share that theory.

 

[Aaron]

We'll try this again. Try to follow:

Jesus was made a curse for us.

What curse?

The curse of the law.

What is the curse of the law?

Galatians 3:10 - Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

What is the transgression of the law?

Sin.

What is the penalty for sin worthy of death according to Moses?

To be hanged on a tree.

There you go, he died a sinner's death. Kick against it all you want. It's right there, plain as day. A child could see it.

 

[JonC]

We'll try this again. Try to follow:

Jesus was made a curse for us.

What curse?

The curse of the law.

What is the curse of the law?

Galatians 3:10 - Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

What is the transgression of the law?

Sin.

What is the penalty for sin worthy of death according to Moses?

To be hanged on a tree.

There you go, he died a sinner's death. Kick against it all you want. It's right there, plain as day. A child could see it.

He did die a sinners death. That is kinda the point.

Scripture tells us Jesus died a sinners death, which was unjust oppression, inflicted by the wicked, wrongly judged, a death He accepted of His own accord, etc.


BUT that was not your claim.

Your claim was that God judged Jesus as a sinner.

That is the part of your claim that's foreign to Scripture.

 

[Aaron]

Scripture tells us Jesus died a sinners death, which was unjust oppression, inflicted by the wicked, wrongly judged, a death He accepted of His own accord, etc.

A sinner can be 'unjustly' oppressed?

You say Jesus died a martyr.

No martyr is a sacrifice for sin.

Jesus didn't die a martyr. He died a sacrifice for sin.

 

[Aaron]

A sinner can be 'unjustly' oppressed?

Never mind this. I misread your adjective phrase.

 

[JesusFan]

Not per Scripture. Christ and His obedience to death does (His "blood shed" for us) but not God treating Jesus as a sin.

Per Scripture God did the opposite of "unjustly oppressing" Jesus and raised Him, seated Him at His right hand, and gave Him a name above every name.

There is a reason Isaiah foreshadowing the cross describes the Servant's death as unjust oppression, and it was not because God was doing it.

Had the Father treated Jesus as sin or as a sinner then God would not longer be holy (you quoted the passage that would condemn God were your theory correct - God will not transfer a man's sin to another person or punish one person in place of another. You just left out that part of the passage.

God requires the soul that sins must die, and His divine wrath towards the sinner must be propiated

 

[JesusFan]

I agree with your post here. But I do not believe it was God who treated Jesus as sin (or, as Calvinists believe, as a sinner).

Instead I believe that Christ bore our sin in that He experienced the wages of death that we suffer as a result of sin and his reconciled man (mankind) to God (God became, fully, one of us). It was, IMO, our sin that essentially killed Jesus (sin begats death and we, not Jesus, were the ones who sin).

Your view does nothing though to propiate the Holy wrath of God towards sinners

 

[JesusFan]

I am not really sure where, or that, we truely disagree.

I do believe that Jesus lay down His life, but at the same time I believe that He suffered death which was because of our sin.

Jesus laying down His life willingly does nor, IMHO, negate that He was killed (Peter notes this when he says that wicked men killed Jesus). Death entered the world through Adam's and spread to all because all have sinned. I believe Jesus experienced the wages of our sin.

I do not view Jesus' death as paying a penality as much as suffering the wages of sin (sin begats death).

I think it is fait to say that on the cross God was reconciling man (mankind) to Himself and this reconciliation has been accomplished (for mankind, not individual men).

Jesus took upon Himself what we deserved, due to the Fall, and to the eternal plan an purpose of God

 

[JesusFan]

Death on a Roman cross was certainly secular judgement. Isaiah let's us know it was unjust "oppression". And yes, they did judge Jesus a sinner, stricken by God. That error was pointed out not only by Isaiah and Peter but also (and more importantly) by the resurrection.

The interesting part here is that nowhere in the Bible is God said to have judged Jesus as a sinner. That is what reformed Catholic doctrine teaches (a revision of Thomas Aquinas' theology). But it is not in the actual Scriptures.

No, scripture states to us that he who knew no sin did become sin for our behalf, to have the Father forsake Him as being the sin bearer and the One whom received in His person our due wrath and judgement

 

[kyredneck]

a falling tower in Siloam

soldiers garrisoned in the tower in Siloam


fell upon (scroll)

 

[JesusFan]

No, Galatians 3:13 is certainly not an exception.

Jesus DID become a curse for us.

But what I said was that there is not a verse in God's Word that states God judged Jesus as a sinner.


The problem with arguing theories rather than Scrioture is that theories are subjective where Scrioture is not.

You can explain all day long that the Bible teaches that God judged Jesus as a sinner, and others can explain all day long that the Bible teaches that men can choose salvation without the work of the Spirit, or that God created man through evolution, or the gap theory....whatever.

But all of that is subjective where Scrioture itself is objective.

Here we are not even talking about differing interpretations. We are talking about one man, or one group's, theories.

It doesn't work to provide a verse to "prove" what the verse does not say. That only works when preaching to the choir as they already accept the theory and merely look at Scripture to prop it up.

He treated Jesus as IF he was sin incarnated , but the mystery is while in that state, still fully sinless, and yet the Father had to treat Him as if was a common sinner, as he tasted wrath and judgement on our behalf

 

[JesusFan]

No, Paul is not applying this to Christ's death. He is explaining that nobody is justified by the Law. Christ being a curse for us does apply to Christ's death on a cross. But the application is different.

Your mistake is that you are trying to apply one verse rather than the entire passage.

And even if you had a point here that does not negate the fact that the verse DOES NOT state that God judged Jesus as a sinner.


I absolutely agree with what Paul wrote. I disagree with what you added.

But nice smokescreen ;-).

Paul was stating there that Jesus was indeed smitten and treated by the Father as a cursed object for our redemption

 

[JesusFan]

A sinner can be 'unjustly' oppressed?

You say Jesus died a martyr.

No martyr is a sacrifice for sin.

Jesus didn't die a martyr. He died a sacrifice for sin.

Jesus death was not due to Satan, to the evil world system, to Rome, but due the eternal plan and purposes of God