Did Jesus cease being God's Son on the Cross?

[JonC]

God requires the soul that sins must die, and His divine wrath towards the sinner must be propiated

Lol.....read the ENTIRE passage.

It is speaking of sin never being transferred to another person , the one who commits the sin must die. And then the passage continues by saying IF the one who sins repents he will not die.


This is the passage you deny.

 

[JonC]

A sinner can be 'unjustly' oppressed?

You say Jesus died a martyr.

No martyr is a sacrifice for sin.

Jesus didn't die a martyr. He died a sacrifice for sin.

Yes, a sinner can be unjustly oppressed, but that isn't the point.

Jesus was, per Scripture, unjustly oppressed and without sin.

I NEVER said Jesus died a martyr.

YOU made that up which shows how desperate you are to hide the fact that your faith is not biblical.

You are making false accusations to draw the argument away from the truth that no passage describes God treating Jesus as a sinner.

 

[JonC]

Your view does nothing though to propiate the Holy wrath of God towards sinners

Yes, it does. You simply ignore it (Christ).

In your view God propitiates Himself. In my view Jesus IS the propitiation for the sins of the World. (Actually, I believe "atonement" a berrer choice...I agree with FF Bruce, it is propitiation but also much more).

 

[JonC]

No, scripture states to us that he who knew no sin did become sin for our behalf, to have the Father forsake Him as being the sin bearer and the One whom received in His person our due wrath and judgement

No, Scripture does not say that.

This is my point. You DON'T EVEN KNOW what the Bible says. You constantly confuse the Bible with the words of Reformed preachers and mix them up.


Try quoting the verse you think exists. YOU CAN'T.

Part of that is Scripture, part human theory, and part secular philosophy.

 

[JonC]

Jesus death was not due to Satan, to the evil world system, to Rome, but due the eternal plan and purposes of God

It was due to sin (and the powers of evil) but by the predetermined plan of God.

Stop following men and read your Bible.

I get that you are a devote disciple of men who "tickle your ear", but so are Mormons.

Become a disciple of Christ. Lean not on your own understanding but on every word from God

 

[JonC]

@JesusFan

Here is an example of what you are doing with God's Word (to explain my complaint).

"Scripture says Jesus wept and was an airplane pilot".

Yes...part of that is Scripture. BUT part is not.

It is wrong to elevate man's teaching to the level of Scripture. But that is exactly what you do when you claim that the words of pastors you like are Scripture.

We need to be more careful with the words of God than you are willing.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, a sinner can be unjustly oppressed, but that isn't the point.

Jesus was, per Scripture, unjustly oppressed and without sin.

I NEVER said Jesus died a martyr.

YOU made that up which shows how desperate you are to hide the fact that your faith is not biblical.

You are making false accusations to draw the argument away from the truth that no passage describes God treating Jesus as a sinner.

LOL. Like I said, you don't get to dictate verbatims. What you describe about Christ is a martyr's death. Your pedantry is your smokescreen.

 

[JonC]

LOL. Like I said, you don't get to dictate verbatims. What you describe about Christ is a martyr's death. Your pedantry is your smokescreen.

No, I'm not dictating verbatims. I am saying I never said, believed, or posted that Jesus died a martyr.

What I describe is Jesus being the "Last Adam", dying for our sins - not Jesus dying a martyr's death.


You are simply trying to hide the fact that your faith is not in Scrioture by creating a smokescreen (making false accusations about what I believe and posted).


To say that I believe or posted that Jesus died as a martyr is a blatant lie. The issue is not the lie (all can see the lie) but the reason you resort to dishonesty when we have legitimate disagreements.

The reason is fairly clear. You can't defend your faith biblically so you have to misrepresent the opposing view to "win" an argument. But by lying you lost the argument already.

 

[Aaron]

The reason is fairly clear. You can't defend your faith biblically so you have to misrepresent the opposing view to "win" an argument. But by lying you lost the argument already.

Here we go again.

Okay you win.

I don't feel the need to get banned again defending myself from your false accusations.

 

[JonC]

Here we go again.

Okay you win.

I don't feel the need to get banned again defending myself from your false accusations.

It is not a false accusation.

I do not believe, nor have I posted, that Jesus died a martyr.

You obviously failed to grasp my view.

I do grant that you may not be intentionally lying. It is very possible you simply do not understand.

But even here you have to accept your misunderstanding in that I have explained that I do not believe Jesus died a martyrs death.


You would feel the same if I kept saying you believe that man comes to Hod on their own accord and attributed your posts to tge contrary as "dictating verbatims".

You do not have to grasp my position but your lack of understanding is no excuse to misrepresent what I posted.

 

[JesusFan]

Lol.....read the ENTIRE passage.

It is speaking of sin never being transferred to another person , the one who commits the sin must die. And then the passage continues by saying IF the one who sins repents he will not die.


This is the passage you deny.

That passage in Ezekiel though has NO bearing upon this discussion regarding Jesus and Calvary though

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, it does. You simply ignore it (Christ).

In your view God propitiates Himself. In my view Jesus IS the propitiation for the sins of the World. (Actually, I believe "atonement" a berrer choice...I agree with FF Bruce, it is propitiation but also much more).

In the biblical view of atonement, yes, God did what only he could do, in order to saver lost sinners and declare us right according to his Holy Law standards, had to take upon Himself and pay for what we all deserved

 

[JesusFan]

It was due to sin (and the powers of evil) but by the predetermined plan of God.

Stop following men and read your Bible.

I get that you are a devote disciple of men who "tickle your ear", but so are Mormons.

Become a disciple of Christ. Lean not on your own understanding but on every word from God

I have been learning from the inspired scriptures for decades now, and just so happen to see the Bible revealing that Pauline Justification is primarily the Pst view of the atonement of Christ

 

[JesusFan]

@JesusFan

Here is an example of what you are doing with God's Word (to explain my complaint).

"Scripture says Jesus wept and was an airplane pilot".

Yes...part of that is Scripture. BUT part is not.

It is wrong to elevate man's teaching to the level of Scripture. But that is exactly what you do when you claim that the words of pastors you like are Scripture.

We need to be more careful with the words of God than you are willing.

yet you also quote and use as examples the teachings on this doctrine from and of "fallible men"

 

[JesusFan]

It is not a false accusation.

I do not believe, nor have I posted, that Jesus died a martyr.

You obviously failed to grasp my view.

I do grant that you may not be intentionally lying. It is very possible you simply do not understand.

But even here you have to accept your misunderstanding in that I have explained that I do not believe Jesus died a martyrs death.


You would feel the same if I kept saying you believe that man comes to Hod on their own accord and attributed your posts to tge contrary as "dictating verbatims".

You do not have to grasp my position but your lack of understanding is no excuse to misrepresent what I posted.

was the death of Jesus based upon the predetermined will of God the Father, or was it thru Satan and evil system and wicked people?

 

[JonC]

That passage in Ezekiel though has NO bearing upon this discussion regarding Jesus and Calvary though

???? Yes it does. YOU introduced the passage so you know it does.

What bearing does the passage have?

God tells us directly that sins cannot be transferred from one person to another.
God tells us sins will be forgiven if one repents.

 

[JonC]

In the biblical view of atonement, yes, God did what only he could do, in order to saver lost sinners and declare us right according to his Holy Law standards, had to take upon Himself and pay for what we all deserved

Wrong. That is not biblical (that is not in the Bible).

Biblical refers to the teachings of Scripture, which Jesus referred to as "what is written" in Scripture.

Your belief has nothing to do with God's Word but instead are theories of men.

 

[JonC]

was the death of Jesus based upon the predetermined will of God the Father, or was it thru Satan and evil system and wicked people?

In Acts Peter tells us it was by wicked powers and in accordance with God's predetermined plan.

 

[JonC]

I don't feel the need to get banned again defending myself from your false accusations.

Ok......I don't want you banned again either (although we disagree I like you here).

So upon reflection it appears you simply have not grasped why my view does not present Jesus as a martyr.

This may not excuse your false accusations as I pointed out that I didn't present Jesus as a martyr, but it explains your error.

Technically one dying for his beluef is a martyr, but the difference is a martyer's death does not actually accomplish something (the aftermath may, but the death itself doesn't).

Jesus was not a martyr because His death accomplished man's reconciliation to God. On the cross God was reconciling man to Himself and it is on this basis we urge men to be reconciled to God. We are reconciled through Jesus' death and saved through His life.

 

[JesusFan]

???? Yes it does. YOU introduced the passage so you know it does.

What bearing does the passage have?

God tells us directly that sins cannot be transferred from one person to another.
God tells us sins will be forgiven if one repents.

In the context, it refers to should one get capital punishment's for a crime/sin that they never did, but a family member did do , nothing to do with the cross of Christ