Reasons Why Professed Christians Fail To See or Grasp The Doctrines Of Grace

[Ben1445]

Umm ... Thomas Jefferson was a deist that denied all miracles (including the Virgin Birth and Resurrection). Jefferson even created his own bible excising all that miracle nonsense from it. So quite a "champion" you have selected for your cause.

Yes, I can see the similarities between the Jefferson "gospel" and the Free Will reigns supreme "gospel".

I figured someone would mention that.
If you have a Bible Promise Book you might be as much of a heretic as Jefferson.
I have never met him. I do agree with his statement. What his reasoning behind it I don’t know. But I agree with his statement.
I have also never seen the quote from Jefferson explaining why he made this Bible. Until I am shown otherwise, I just see someone making a version of a “Bible Promise Book.”
He was secretive about it because he cut a Bible to make it.
I would be interested in his own statements that show that he did not believe in the God of the Bible. Since deist believe that God does not reveal Himself by specific revelation and only believe in natural revelation, it surprises me that Jefferson would have enough interest in the Special Revelation that he collected to have quicker access to.
I don’t have a sworn statement of his confession of faith. But I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and not believe everything on the history channel. I also don’t spend much time studying what every person who ever lived believed.
He is not my “champion.” He said something that I agree with and I credited him with his statement instead of plagiarizing.
I do agree with his statement.

 

[Zaatar71]

The problem many have is they ignore how their theologies developed. These developed over time, sometimes revising past theories (like Calvin's reworking of Aquinas) and sometimes answering new questions that arose (like the scope of the atonement, which was post-Calvin).

I have never heard of people who have read these people you speak of. Do you think missionaries go out, and learn a language, so they can explain who Aqinas, Calvin, or beza was?

Theology sometimes makes well meaning people stupid and prone to adopting a mythology over history.

Theology makes well meaning people....stupid? So, theology is a bad thing? You have some unique ideas.

 

[Ben1445]

Like Lydia, whose heart God opened to receive the words about to be preached? [Acts 16:14] ... or more like "as many as were appointed to eternal life believed"? [Acts 13:48]

Because ultimately, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. - Romans 9:15-16 ... THAT is the thread that runs through scripture from Genesis to Revelation. The Gospel is just the means ... God is the CAUSE.

Definitely God is the cause of salvation.
This doesn’t mean God caused everything.
I reject Calvinism or DOG or whatever it wants to be called because all of the conclusions of its teachings are not correct.
The Greek word in acts shows personal responsibility involved.
We say God works in our hearts. This doesn’t exclusively mean that when God works on hearts they will be opened.

Luke 7:31-35
Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Jesus said that they had been called in multiple fashions and still would not listen. God was working on hearts. Not all who were called bend to the will of their maker. That is why few are chosen and many are judged for their sin.

 

[Zaatar71]

Add this one to the end of your list if you can have an honest even discussion.

They are presented with errors and are rejected on the basis of the error contained in them.
Biblical reasoning stands in your inability to find a use of the words ordain and elect in any form (in Scripture, not all your confessions of faith) that describe sinners being chosen to be saved rather than sinners who are saved being chosen to do or be something after they are saved.

These words are not found in scripture? do you mean this is not scripture?
Titus1:
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

 

[Zaatar71]

We have seen in history the ebb and flow between the hard of determinism and the soft of liberalism I only hope that we can come to a biblical grounding. Only time will tell.

Some approach these discussion as a contest that has to be won. That is not how I approach it and I hope that is not how they think I do.

I just want people to know God as He can be discovered in the pages of scripture.

Where do you see such an ebb and flow?

 

[Silverhair]

Like Lydia, whose heart God opened to receive the words about to be preached? [Acts 16:14] ... or more like "as many as were appointed to eternal life believed"? [Acts 13:48]

Because ultimately, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. - Romans 9:15-16 ... THAT is the thread that runs through scripture from Genesis to Revelation. The Gospel is just the means ... God is the CAUSE.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

God has provided the opportunity to know Him and to freely trust in Him. Those that do will be saved those that do not will be lost

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God responds to our free choices or He dictates our choices.

If He responds to our choices we are responsible for them if He dictates our choices He is responsible for them.

Those are the only options.

 

[Zaatar71]

We have seen in history the ebb and flow between the hard of determinism and the soft of liberalism I only hope that we can come to a biblical grounding. Only time will tell.

Some approach these discussion as a contest that has to be won. That is not how I approach it and I hope that is not how they think I do.

I just want people to know God as He can be discovered in the pages of scripture.

Do you think people do not believe they cannot find God in the pages of scripture?

 

[Zaatar71]

Still no response from you rebutting that the basis of calvinism is pagan philosophy.

You can deny the truth but that does not change the truth ZA.

Since you are so sure it is not true then where is your proof that what I said is wrong?

That is your idea of truth. You are welcome to believe that. I think it is one of the 15 reasons people do not come to truth. There is nothing to refute as it is your opinion. You are welcome to your opinion.

 

[Zaatar71]

I agree. There is too much theory and too much philosophy taking the place of "what is written" in Scripture.

Our doctrine should be founded on God's Word and not Augustine, Aquinas, or Calvin.

In the confession of faith, it did not mention these men you spoke of, but it did have alot of scripture.

I believe what you observe is a lack of trust in God. People read Scripture and trust in what men tell them is taught by the Bible, or their understanding of what passages mean to them, rather than the words God gave us.

So, the people who wrote such confessions did not rely on scripture?

That said, I believe even Calvinists can be Christian and live in the Spirit.

 

[Zaatar71]

Actually the majority of Christians believe this ZA.

The question would be, is a christian someone who denies scripture, or believes it? Many people in utah believe the mormon church is Christian. Do you think they are Christians?

 

[Zaatar71]

View attachment 10987

He should have stayed off those Calvinist websites. Terrible is the error of the internet that even the framers of the laws and governments of the United States were not able to grasp the truths that Zaatar holds to be self evident. (Satire)

No. I didn’t get this image from the internet. It is a quote that was sent to me. I don’t think Jefferson posted this on his anti-cal website. But according to Zaatar, it should be rejected not on the merit of what it says, just because you must blindly follow Calvinism (you don’t really have a choice). It must not be considered because it is anti-cal.

Was Thomas Jefferson a bible teacher? A theologian? He knew calvin was unsaved? Did he know his heart? he does not mention Jesus, are you sure he was a believer?
This does not sound like a Christian to me:
Jefferson’s views on prayer are even more ambiguous. He dismissed Biblical miracles as myth, implying doubts about the efficacy of prayer. But he recognized an obligation of humans to worship God, and he often prayed publicly, at least in very broad terms. His second inaugural address included a prayer request for his listeners: “I ask you to join with me in supplications, that he [that Being in whose hands we are] will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures, that whatsoever they do, shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations.”[9] Of course, as with references to an afterlife, these prayers might be understood in the context of social convention and political posturing. In the end, it can be said that he prayed although apparently with little belief or expectation of miraculous divine intervention.

Jefferson and Christianity​

While Jefferson was a firm theist, the God in which he believed was not the traditional Christian divinity. Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).[10] In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”

Try again Ben, this does not look like a trusted guide. he is critical of calvin, but denies Jesus is God! i do not recommend this Ben!

 

[Silverhair]

Where do you see such an ebb and flow?

Do some research ZA. You will find that the church has moved back and forth between a deterministic and liberal view.

We saw that as a move from liberalism and we see that happening now as a reaction to determinism. Both views have caused harm to the body of Christ.

Both views came about because people started to listen to what some men told them what the bible said rather than trusting what the bible actually says.

 

[Ben1445]

These words are not found in scripture? do you mean this is not scripture?
Titus1:
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Your interpretation.
Paul was a servant of God.
Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ.
He was these things according to a faith. The faith that is spoken of here is the faith of those who are waiting for the redemption of their bodies(this teaching is explained in Romans 8). It is the faith that acknowledges truth and godliness.

Paul is in hope of eternal life. God promises eternal life in His son before the foundation of the world.
In verse three Paul says that the promise was given to men recently by preaching.
The promise was not made to specific individuals who had not been created. The promise was in His Son.

Paul does not begin to explain election in these verses. He appeals to a previous knowledge of a doctrine of election. To teach election from this passage is to teach the cart to pull the horse.

 

[Zaatar71]

Do some research ZA. You will find that the church has moved back and forth between a deterministic and liberal view.

What is the liberal view? Liberal about what?

We saw that as a move from liberalism and we see that happening now as a reaction to determinism.

What do you mean by this term determinism? you keep using it. What do you think it means?

Both views have caused harm to the body of Christ.

What has harmed the "body of Christ?

Both views came about because people started to listen to what some men told them what the bible said rather than trusting what the bible actually says.

You know what the bible says? other men do not know? We should not listen to teachers? Your ideas seem confusing! It looks as if you are wrapped up in the 15 reasons offered why people deny these truths.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you think people do not believe they cannot find God in the pages of scripture?

That is where we will find God.

Problem is that some think they have to correct the Holy Spirit.

 

[Zaatar71]

Definitely God is the cause of salvation.
This doesn’t mean God caused everything.
I reject Calvinism or DOG or whatever it wants to be called because all of the conclusions of its teachings are not correct.
The Greek word in acts shows personal responsibility involved.
We say God works in our hearts. This doesn’t exclusively mean that when God works on hearts they will be opened.

He just quoted a text saying Lydia whose heart the Lord opened! Do you think we open our own heart then?

Luke 7:31-35
Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Jesus said that they had been called in multiple fashions and still would not listen. God was working on hearts. Not all who were called bend to the will of their maker.

God can only hope someone will believe? he actually has nothing to do with it?

That is why few are chosen and many are judged for their sin.

Chosen for what Ben?

 

[Zaatar71]

That is where we will find God.

Problem is that some think they have to correct the Holy Spirit.

Correct the Holy Spirit? What are you talking about?

 

[Silverhair]

The question would be, is a christian someone who denies scripture, or believes it? Many people in utah believe the mormon church is Christian. Do you think they are Christians?

They mormon's believe they can become gods. Not Christian. Same for JW's and a few others.

Well since calvinism denies clear scripture are you suggesting that calvinists are not Christian?

 

[Zaatar71]

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

God has provided the opportunity to know Him and to freely trust in Him. Those that do will be saved those that do not will be lost

How has God provided for people to KNow Jesus ,when they never heard about Jesus?

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God responds to our free choices or He dictates our choices.

God waits to respond to us? he cannot do anything ? He just watches ? Never heard of this idea?

If He responds to our choices we are responsible for them if He dictates our choices He is responsible for them.

people do not choose willingly?

Those are the only options.

 

[Zaatar71]

To me, these are the main reasons that the Bible is misunderstood by so many who profess to be Christians...
They simply do not have the Spirit of God in them to show them the truths that are found in every word of Scripture.

I see what you mean! Someone mentioned Jefferson as a source, he was an unbeliever, who denied the trinity, resurrection, miracles, etc. Not a good source! from google search;

Jefferson and Christianity​

While Jefferson was a firm theist, the God in which he believed was not the traditional Christian divinity. Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).[10] In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”


Jefferson's copy of Salome Bearing the Head of John the Baptist
Given these views, Jefferson’s relationship with Christianity was complicated. He believed that Jesus was the “first of human sages,” noting that his philosophy, “freed from the corruptions of later times” – including Jesus’ divinity, resurrection, and miracles – “is far superior” to others because Jesus preached “universal philanthropy, not only to kindred and friends, to neighbors and countrymen, but to all mankind….”[11] With this in mind, Jefferson said that Christianity would be the best religion in a republic, especially one like the United States with a broad diversity of ethnicities and religions. “[T]he Christian religion when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have inveloped it, and brought to the original purity & simplicity of its benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, & the freest expression of the human mind,” he explained.[12] It was a “benign religion … inculcating honesty, truth, temperance, gratitude and love of man, acknowledging and adoring an overruling providence.”[13] Based on these understandings, Jefferson demonstrated a deep, even devout, admiration of Jesus, “the purity & sublimity of his moral precepts, the eloquence of his inculcations, the beauty of the apologues in which he conveys them...”[14] At times, Jefferson described these moral and ethical teachings of Jesus as “primitive christianity” before its perversion by church leaders seeking temporal power.[15]