Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: How does that support the idea that Eve was not held accountable for her sin?
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Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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HP: How does that support the idea that Eve was not held accountable for her sin?
Romans 5:12 states sin entered the world through Adam. If this is the case, it did not enter via Eve. How is she accountable for sin if it entered through Adam?
Steven2006
New Member
I just think that means it is spread through Adam. I don't take that to mean Eve was not held accountable.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: The same way I am accountable for sin. I am responsible for my own sin as was Eve.
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Adam was created first and as such is our physical father. When he sinned God allowed certain physical traits to become depraved as a direct result of his sin. Physical death as we know it was a consequence of his sin and we die physically because we have inherited his physical nature and have followed his example and sinned, just as this verse says. Again, this verse in no wise states or implies that Eve did not sin nor that God did not hold her accountable for her sin. She did and God held her accountable. Ge 3:16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Steven2006
New Member
If God didn't hold her accountable why would He have punished her? That fact that He did punish her proves He held her accountable, IMHO.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Precisely. If one is punished, it directly points to either culpability or injustice in punishing her.
My question to Webdog might be whether or not he believes Eve was sinless?
There is no "nature" to sin when you have received The New Adamic Nature of Christ........Otherwise you would have a dualistic soul/personality, often called Schizophenia........It is your willfulness due to deception, and believing lies, and the leftover mindset of the Old Nature. The Old Nature is dead...........DEAD! Galatians 2:20!!!!!!!
There are many people around us that seem unsaved yet can be undiscipled, and fleshly Christians........We have a will and we can believe our old memories/habits, over the new fresh ideas/truths that the Word of God has to replace them. That's the Roman's 12 "mind renewing" process that enhances our growth. That's the "endurance" part of these mis-quoted verses............One endures by giving the "helm" of one's life to the Lordship of Christ. If we don't, we live most miserable lives as Christians as we are living the antithesis of our true nature by going after the world in a self/fleshly pursuit of meaning. We have a brand new identity.........A new Birthright............We are new Creatures/creations in Christ........Yet we have free will, and can still choose to believe our emotions our outward influences over God's Word. We are like those sheep that have wandered yet Who owns us is not in question. Whether that wandering lamb goes 1 mile or 20 miles from the sheepfold on it's own, it's ownership is not in dispute.
What we have here is folks that think that we can become His Lambs, then by our willful act can become "goats", by some how severing our adoption.
The person that mentioned cirmcumcision used a great metaphor. Circumcision was used by God in His scripture to show, "permanance". One cannot be uncircumcised. When God seals the deal, it's done. When we work on our salvation it is the growth process not an endeavor to obtain more assurance and security of salvation.
Now your battle is with the Power of Sin, empowered by the devil which has access to your mind, will, and emotions to give you temptations, and lies.........Also, the Nature of Christ that is your new nature, as it is Christ indwelling your soul, can be displaced when you choose to go it alone.............That is a conditon called living after the flesh..........When you are unsaved, you can only live in the flesh, and can never live in the Spirit.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I would consider ‘ones own lust’ part and parcel to a nature to sin. If not why not? Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Is not 'a believer' part of ‘every man?’
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I believe hell will hold many a circumcised individual if they were not circumcised of the heart, and even then they would have of necessity continued faithful unto the end to be found as one of the redeemed in the end.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There are two models for what happens after one becomes a born-again saved Christian.
The first one is the Bible model ... for example-
Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."
The second one is like this -
in Christ,
Bob
The first one is the Bible model ... for example-
Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."
The second one is like this -
in Christ,
Bob
It is your error in exegesis.
Then you cannot say you are saved and that goes against a whole bunch of scriptures. You have no hope in Christ, your hope rest in yourself.
By grace are ye saved through faith, not of yourseleves (Ehp 2) . You have a huge hermeneutic problem with your theology.
:jesus:
Well the first hint as to the solution to that problem -- is that BobRyan never claimed that people do not have the Holy Spirit until they are baptized.
1. The lost have the Holy Spirit "Convicting them" as we see in John 16 -- while lost.
2. The born again Christian in Romans 10 simply believes and confesses -- that happens before Baptism. The new birth is from the Holy Spirit - so also is the Romans 2 circumcision of the heart where the Law of God is written on the tablets of the human heart as promised in the New Covenant of the Old Testament -- all that is pre-baptism.
Where you came up with the BobRyan does not believe a person has the Holy Spirit until they are baptized idea - is beyond me. But it is a good story
in Christ,
Bob
Is your religion split on this issue? I get a network called 3ABN ( I think it stands for three angels broadcast network) that has a SDA preacher on at 6:00 here on the east coast who has just gone through a step by step sermon on how one receives the Holy Spirit and he says it is by baptism in water just like Jesus did it.
Are you guys split in this in your religion?
:jesus:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What utter hypocrisy we have exhibited on this board. If this is not judging the salvation of Bob Ryan, the Pope is not a Catholic.
So "circumcized of the heart" is tentative; based on one's works?
Why would the Lord inspire the word "circumcized" to be used, which is a irreversable physical change and then use it in respect to the soul/heart?
If "circumcision" of the heart can be undone by the soul/person, then why use that wording for a condition that you deem changeable by an act of man?
Why not use "molded" as in clay that can be reshaped? A molded heart or soul is not a new or different heart as in a circumcized heart?
So how faithful do you have to be to be redeemed? The scripture says we were redeemed already. Can YOU find where? And by what?
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: 2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; 1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 2Pe 3:11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 2Pe 3:11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Let me help you. 1 Peter 1:18-19 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
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I did not judge Bob's salvation. Only Bob knows if the Holy Spirit is testifying to his spirit that he is saved.
What I did do is make an observation of fact. That is, Bob's formula as he posted.....
Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
...can have no other conclusion than he cannot say or know he is saved because he is still alive in his body of death. Facts are facts. "END" is required in his formula in order to = "saved". Maybe Bob would like to re-do his formula that he may be able to say he is saved before the "END" comes.
:jesus:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: (EM by the way in Steaver’s quote)
In the manner Steaver addressed Bob’s post he indeed directly judged him outside of the faith. There are many ways he could have disagreed with him without flatly judging his salvation, but Steaver did NOT choose any such manner of response.
Second, Steaver did not judge according to any so-called ‘observation of fact.' Steaver judged according to his own personal inability and failure to discern what it means to ‘know by faith’ as opposed to what it means to ‘know by absolute knowledge.’ His inability to distinguish between the two in no wise necessitates Bob from knowing he is indeed saved in this present world. Nothing Bob Ryan stated in any wise indicates he cannot know, in this present world, his standing before God 'by faith,' contrary to Steaver's false charges.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Anything held ‘by faith’ of necessity can be changed. If it takes an act of the will to engage faith, (faith clearly involves an act of the will) faith can be left by a change of the will as well. Just as we are the creators of the formed intent to exercise faith, we can as free moral agents choose to leave that faith and choose other intents in direct opposition to the faith we once formed intents consistent with. Hence the many admonitions from Scripture to continue in faith and obedience until the end, without which no man shall see God. Mt 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. "
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