Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?

[BobRyan]

Is your religion split on this issue? I get a network called 3ABN ( I think it stands for three angels broadcast network) that has a SDA preacher on at 6:00 here on the east coast who has just gone through a step by step sermon on how one receives the Holy Spirit and he says it is by baptism in water just like Jesus did it.

Are you guys split in this in your religion?

:jesus:

3 ABN is an independant ministry with a lot of good programming. But I would not say that it is vetted by theologians in our church by any stretch. It is entirely possible that you could hear something by a given speaker that was not well thoughtout sometime.

Our official statement of beliefs (including our belief about the Holy Spirit and our belief on the subject of believer's baptism) is posted on the web.

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

15. Baptism:
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)

The baptism of the Holy Spirit (the gifts of the Spirit given then) that some non-SDAs refer to as speaking in tongues etc - is often claimed in SDA sermons as bestowed as part of baptism. I do not necessarily agree with that idea.

In the statement above the emphasis is on Baptism "as a symbol". It is not emphaticallly stating that the gifts of the Spirit are given at baptism - and certainly makes no statment about the new birth not happening until baptism.


There are a number of divisive issues inside our church - but baptism and the fact that the Holy Spirit causes the new birth before baptism is not one of them.

Just "When" a person gets the "gifts of the Spirit" is a subject of much discussion - I will agree to that. But the fact that the New Birth, the New creation event happens pre-baptism is pretty much a non-debate for SDAs. It is all pre-baptism.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

15. Baptism:
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)
in Christ,

Bob

This sounds a bit confusing to me the way it is written. It states, that by baptism.......thus...... "we become His people and are received as members of His church".

Why is this phrase listed under baptism? You said that one becomes saved (His people, members of His church) without baptism.

 

[steaver]

HP: (EM by the way in Steaver’s quote)

In the manner Steaver addressed Bob’s post he indeed directly judged him outside of the faith. There are many ways he could have disagreed with him without flatly judging his salvation, but Steaver did NOT choose any such manner of response.

Second, Steaver did not judge according to any so-called ‘observation of fact.' Steaver judged according to his own personal inability and failure to discern what it means to ‘know by faith’ as opposed to what it means to ‘know by absolute knowledge.’ His inability to distinguish between the two in no wise necessitates Bob from knowing he is indeed saved in this present world. Nothing Bob Ryan stated in any wise indicates he cannot know, in this present world, his standing before God 'by faith,' contrary to Steaver's false charges.

Personally, I have absolute personal knowledge that I am saved, the scriptures calls this "born-again" (John 3) . The Holy Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am a child of God (Ro 8) . I am one with Jesus Christ. I know Him. The voice of a stranger I will not hear (John 10) .

I have been given the personal ability via the Holy Spirit to know Jesus on a very personal level. His Spirit works within me. Jesus gives all His children this absolute knowledge when He joins Himself together with the believer through regeneration.

How could I not have faith in that which I know is an absolute truth?

:thumbsup:

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Bob Ryan, just out of curiosity- does the Seventh-day Adventist church accept baptisms from other denominations?

 

[steaver]

Anything held ‘by faith’ of necessity can be changed. If it takes an act of the will to engage faith, (faith clearly involves an act of the will) faith can be left by a change of the will as well. Just as we are the creators of the formed intent to exercise faith, we can as free moral agents choose to leave that faith and choose other intents in direct opposition to the faith we once formed intents consistent with.

Generally speaking maybe, but we have much more than faith in an unknown or an unseen. We have personal knowledge of truths given to us through God's work in us. He recreates us from the inside out giving us the Holy Spirit rebirth. God tells us that we are kept by the power of God through faith unto the end.

Faith alone is not what saves us. It is by grace through faith, it is by the power of God through faith, it is by faith in Jesus Christ the Author and Finisher of our faith.

:jesus:

 

[DHK]

Anything held ‘by faith’ of necessity can be changed. If it takes an act of the will to engage faith, (faith clearly involves an act of the will) faith can be left by a change of the will as well.

Reasonable people base their faith on knowledge.
There is such a thing as blind faith. The Islamic suicide bomber has blind faith in that he believes he will go to paradise by blowing himself up. What is the basis of his belief. It is the Koran. But on what basis does a Muslim believe that those words in the Koran are to be accepted as inspired of God and true. Blind faith. It was sent from heaven; dictated to Mohammed (illiterate) by the angel Gabriel. It takes blind faith to believe that. There is no reason to believe it.
There is no reason to believe in the stories set forth in the Hindu Vedas, the Hindu sacred Scriptures. "Romantic stories," but why believe them as true? There is no basis to believe in them. It would be blind faith.

However, in Christianity, we know Jesus lived historically. We have evidence that not only did he live, he also died, and not only did he die, he rose again after three days. His resurrection demonstrates the truth of his claims.
--We have faith in the claims of Christianity because its claims are true; its promises are sure. The one who made those promises does not lie.
He is not Mohammed or Allah, or Vishnu, or Brahma, or any other god.
We put our faith in someone we know, have a personal relationship with, someone who is alive today, and has not only promised, but has given us eternal life. Thus the surety of our salvation lies in the confidence of our faith. The confidence of our faith lies in the closeness of the relationship one has with God and His promises, His revelation to us. Faith in Him is not blind. The more we know him; the greater our faith will be.
Thus Paul said:

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Just as we are the creators of the formed intent to exercise faith, we can as free moral agents choose to leave that faith and choose other intents in direct opposition to the faith we once formed intents consistent with.

In the above verse Paul teaches that it is Christ that keeps that "faith" or salvation, which I have committed unto him against that day (when he comes).
Faith in man will fail; for man makes mistakes.
Faith in God will never fail. We may fail. But God does not fail us.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Hence the many admonitions from Scripture to continue in faith and obedience until the end, without which no man shall see God. Mt 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. "

Quote the verse in its context:

Matthew 10:22-23 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The context is The Great Tribulation. He is speaking about the Jews. The time frame is right before the coming of Christ--when Christ will come with the glory of His Father and the holy angels. (cf. Mark 8:38). The "enduring" is a physical enduring through the tribulation period. The "saved" is saved from a physical death which could come on most anyone in the Tribulation Period of seven years. But he that endures that period of tribulation of seven years will be alive (saved) at the end of it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That's hardly my take on it...and besides, when there are times in your life when you won't persevere, are you implying Christ is less powerful during those times?

No. Are you? I believe that at those times my trust may be lacking or some such thing but certainly not Christ. It may not be your view but its how it sounds when it gets down to it.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan, just out of curiosity- does the Seventh-day Adventist church accept baptisms from other denominations?

yes - as long as it is full water baptism by immersion - of a believer in Christ. In that case people join by simply agreeing to the doctrinal statements of the church (we call it "profession of faith").

But if they were sprinkled - or baptized as an infant - we require that they participate in full water baptism as a believer before they can join the church as a member of the congregation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Personally, I have absolute personal knowledge that I am saved, the scriptures calls this "born-again" (John 3) . The Holy Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am a child of God (Ro 8) . I am one with Jesus Christ. I know Him. The voice of a stranger I will not hear (John 10) .

I have been given the personal ability via the Holy Spirit to know Jesus on a very personal level. His Spirit works within me. Jesus gives all His children this absolute knowledge when He joins Himself together with the believer through regeneration.

How could I not have faith in that which I know is an absolute truth?

:thumbsup:

That is the starting point for all who participate here.

Notice that in Matt 7 - many people "thought" they were saved - but were not. They "thought they had absolute knowledge" on that point -- they were mistaken.

But as to the question you asked - Lucifer knew as absolute truth that God was Sovereing God over all the Universe. So also did Adam and Eve. They knew that they were created in perfect harmony with their Creator - Holy, Sinless, and perfect. Yet they all chose to reject that absolute truth.

In Matt 18 the servant is told absolutely that they are fully forgiven and they walk away from the throne conscious that they are fully forgiven -- no longer in the anxious terrifying moment of begging the king to allow them to repay without punishment - the impossible debt that was owed.

Yet in the illustration - they too - turn from that absolute condition. They do not "choose to be unforgiven" rather they "choose" to retain a spirit of selfishness.

Paul speaks to this in Romans 7 when he talks about "sin in me at WAR with the law of my mind". The huge difficulty you seem to imagine in turning from a totally surrendered saved stated - is not the impossibility you imagine - as God points out in Matt 18.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol...

This sounds a bit confusing to me the way it is written. It states, that by baptism.......thus...... "we become His people and are received as members of His church".

Why is this phrase listed under baptism? You said that one becomes saved (His people, members of His church) without baptism.

Prior to baptism - we are born again - (new creation) by choosing to submit to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Holy Spirit first convicts, then once we choose to submit - the Holy Spirit causes the new birth. At that point the born-again saint having chosen to turn from rebellion against God - to obedience, follows the example of Christ in submitting to the ordinance of baptism. Obedience is the immediate fruit of the New Birth (the good tree of Matt 7).

In the statement above - the complete process that includes "being received as a full member of the church" cannot happen until baptism -- even though baptism is simply "a symbol".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[eightball]

There is a baptism and circumcision of the human soul, that is not physical, but Spiritual, that is one that counts and makes the difference between being one of the goats or one of His sheep.

No doubt the thief on the cross that would be with Jesus in "Paradise" had received that non-outward-physical, but inward sealing.

We do recall that this thief had no opportunity for immersion, sprinkling, etc... but was "made" part of God's family none the less.

Also, I believe if one digs deeper into the context of Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist, you'll find that this was His annointing-sign of His Priesthood over all of His. Research in Ungers, or other reputable biblical encyclopedias reveal that water baptism was a very common practice before being used by the early/first church. In the churchs' case it publical revealed symbolically, what God had done with that human soul. Galatians 2:20 tranlated into a symbolic ceremony of great importance before the flock. It is not unlike when we take communion. We know what the bread and wine/grape juice represents, and with water baptism we should know what it means to be immersed or covered by the water, and raised up from the water.

 

[steaver]

Prior to baptism - we are born again - (new creation) by choosing to submit to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Holy Spirit first convicts, then once we choose to submit - the Holy Spirit causes the new birth. At that point the born-again saint having chosen to turn from rebellion against God - to obedience, follows the example of Christ in submitting to the ordinance of baptism. Obedience is the immediate fruit of the New Birth (the good tree of Matt 7).

In the statement above - the complete process that includes "being received as a full member of the church" cannot happen until baptism -- even though baptism is simply "a symbol".

in Christ,

Bob

What? "A full member of His church".

Either you are saved or you are not. Where do you find half saved in the scriptures?

The SDA statement on baptism which you provided is written exactly the way the SDA preacher was teaching it on the 3ABN station. I don't know why you are tweeking it to alter what it says.

If you do not agree with the SDA statement then why do you stay there? It seems that this is no minor disagreement. You believe one is born of God BEFORE one is baptised. The SDA statement declares that one is born of God through water baptism.

15. Baptism:
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church.

Explain "become His people" for me. I know that when one is born-again one becomes His people WITHOUT any baptism of water. It is the Holy Spirit baptism.

Now you agree with me that one is born-again without the water, right? Can you explain the statement "become His people"? Is this something different than "born-again"?

 

[annsni]

What? "A full member of His church".

Either you are saved or you are not. Where do you find half saved in the scriptures?

The SDA statement on baptism which you provided is written exactly the way the SDA preacher was teaching it on the 3ABN station. I don't know why you are tweeking it to alter what it says.

If you do not agree with the SDA statement then why do you stay there? It seems that this is no minor disagreement. You believe one is born of God BEFORE one is baptised. The SDA statement declares that one is born of God through water baptism.

15. Baptism:
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church.

Explain "become His people" for me. I know that when one is born-again one becomes His people WITHOUT any baptism of water. It is the Holy Spirit baptism.

Now you agree with me that one is born-again without the water, right? Can you explain the statement "become His people"? Is this something different than "born-again"?

I think you misread it - it's not "a full member of HIS church" but " a full member of THE church".

 

[steaver]

That is the starting point for all who participate here.

Notice that in Matt 7 - many people "thought" they were saved - but were not. They "thought they had absolute knowledge" on that point -- they were mistaken.


in Christ,

Bob

The people "thought" they "should" be saved "because" of their "works". This in itself shows that they had no knowledge of Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit rebirth. Then to futher crush your argument from Matt 7, Jesus said to them "I NEVER knew you". And as always, "never" is an unchangeable "absolute" just like when Jesus says concerning the one who is born-again......

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4)

Study it and see if you can notice your mistake in referencing Matt 7 for your argument. If you can, then we can move on to those other scriptures you listed.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

I think you misread it - it's not "a full member of HIS church" but " a full member of THE church".

I just copied and pasted what Bob posted :wavey:

But either way, it makes no difference. Unless "THE church" is the SDA.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Prior to baptism - we are born again - (new creation) by choosing to submit to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Holy Spirit first convicts, then once we choose to submit - the Holy Spirit causes the new birth. At that point the born-again saint having chosen to turn from rebellion against God - to obedience, follows the example of Christ in submitting to the ordinance of baptism. Obedience is the immediate fruit of the New Birth (the good tree of Matt 7).

In the statement above - the complete process that includes "being received as a full member of the church" cannot happen until baptism -- even though baptism is simply "a symbol".

What? "A full member of His church".

Someone who is listed as a member of the local congregation.

Either you are saved or you are not.

As it turns out - my denomination never claims that all saved people of the planet just so happen to also be members of one of our local congregations.

I thought you already understood that point.

The SDA statement on baptism which you provided is written exactly the way the SDA preacher was teaching it on the 3ABN station. I don't know why you are tweeking it to alter what it says.

No tweek. I copied the statement verbatim.

Again - this is the 'easy part'.

15. Baptism:
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)

If you do not agree with the SDA statement then why do you stay there?

I do agree with the statement.

(the easy part again).

You believe one is born of God BEFORE one is baptised. The SDA statement declares that one is born of God through water baptism.

There is no "born of God THROUGH water Baptism" in the statement -- as it turns out.

Now you agree with me that one is born-again without the water, right?

As do all SDAs.

Can you explain the statement "become His people"? Is this something different than "born-again"?

The statement refers to the fact that one who is baptized has not only (in the past) responded to the Holy Spirit and been born again -- but they are also accepted in to local church membership at the time of baptism.

Thus -as the statment explicitly emphasizes - "baptism is a SYMBOL" of the death burial and resurrection - identification with Christ - it is not the actual MOMENT of the New Birth.

Hence the emphasis on "symbol".

Again - just stating the obvious here.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I think you misread it - it's not "a full member of HIS church" but " a full member of THE church".

Actually I think Steaver may have missed more than that.

15. Baptism:
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)

A person joins the invisible body of Christ (Christs church) at the point of the New Birth. However that body of Christ is not informed when a soul makes it's choice for Christ -- until that person chooses to "tell someone".

The statement above is more focused on the corporate mortal act of "receiving" a new Christian into membership. That is a literal action taken by a literal local congregation.

In our case - we vote them into membership at their Baptism.

But as for the invisible body of Christ - the Church invisible - the fact that the SDA church accepts believer's baptism from other denominations and also accepts those members via "profession of faith" without another baptism (if they then choose to accept our understanding of Bible doctrine) -- is reflective of our view of a larger body of Christ concept that is not limited to any one denomination.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

.The statement refers to the fact that one who is baptized has not only (in the past) responded to the Holy Spirit and been born again -- but they are also accepted in to local church membership at the time of baptism.

Thus -as the statment explicitly emphasizes - "baptism is a SYMBOL" of the death burial and resurrection - identification with Christ - it is not the actual MOMENT of the New Birth.

Hence the emphasis on "symbol".

Again - just stating the obvious here.

in Christ,

Bob

What is obvious here is that one of two things has happened when this statement was written;

1) The church was intentional when it said "become His people" to teach baptism in water was a requirement for salvation.

or

2) The church poorly wrote the statement and should fix it.

Anytime one says you become Jesus people it most certainly means you have been born again. In this statement it is clear that "baptism" is said to be part of "becoming His people". There is no way around it.

I really do not care one way or the other Bob, it is your church and you guys can make up any rules you wish. I do know that the SDA preacher that is on at 6:00am.est (I will have to get his name) made it very clear that it was through water baptism that one receives the Holy Spirit. So I would not say that ALL SDA's believe as you do on this.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Actually I think Steaver may have missed more than that.



A person joins the invisible body of Christ (Christs church) at the point of the New Birth. However that body of Christ is not informed when a soul makes it's choice for Christ -- until that person chooses to "tell someone".

The statement above is more focused on the corporate mortal act of "receiving" a new Christian into membership. That is a literal action taken by a literal local congregation.

In our case - we vote them into membership at their Baptism.

But as for the invisible body of Christ - the Church invisible - the fact that the SDA church accepts believer's baptism from other denominations and also accepts those members via "profession of faith" without another baptism (if they then choose to accept our understanding of Bible doctrine) -- is reflective of our view of a larger body of Christ concept that is not limited to any one denomination.

in Christ,

Bob

Sounds good Bob. You should petition the church to fix the statement so outsiders like me will not misconstrue what it is that was said. You should just make it simple and clear.

All you would need to do is just drop the "become His people" and the confusion in the statement would cease. There is really no need for it to be there at all since the one getting baptized is already one of His people and does not then become one of His people.

It's very odd and out of place according to what you say is the position of the SDA church concerning baptism.

It just makes me think of all the Catholic statements that guys like you and I bring up to Catholics to show them what their church has said and you have catholics saying "no, no you are misunderstanding what it means". One should not need an interpreter for statements of faith.

And I know one SDA preacher who thinks it is saying what it says.

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

I really do not care one way or the other Bob, it is your church and you guys can make up any rules you wish. I do know that the SDA preacher that is on at 6:00am.est (I will have to get his name) made it very clear that it was through water baptism that one receives the Holy Spirit. So I would not say that ALL SDA's believe as you do on this.

:jesus:

As far as I am aware - there is "no discussion at all" within the Adventist Church challenging the concept of "believer's baptism" or challenging the Bible truth that the New Birth (work of the Holy Spirit) occurs before baptism.

However as I said earlier - you do see a lot of debate and discussion about the idead of "gifts of the Spirit" as connected to "baptism of the Spirit" and whether or not they are given at baptism or at some later date - if ever.

The speaker you heard may well have been one of the many who believe that Spiritual Gifts - Baptism of the Spirit - happens at believer's baptism.

in Christ,

Bob