Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jedi Knight; A TRUE believer has a lie detector....the Holy Spirit who is the spirit of truth.

HP: You must feel you and God are absolutely one in infallible knowledge. That only leads to one conclusion. Anyone that would dare disagree with JK, or believes a lie, disagrees with God and is outside the faith, obviously devoid of the Holy Spirit. Rom. 8:9b"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." With only you and DHK having such infallible knowledge, is it right to assume the impossibility of you two disagreeing?

Here is what I do not understand. If the Holy Spirit gives you a lie detector, and DHK says all men are liars, how can a man that has the Holy Spirit be a liar and walk with the Holy Spirit? Does not Scripture clearly state that no such two can walk together? Am 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Who is the father of lies? Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[webdog]

I hesitate to bring this up, because it's likely to lead HP down another rabbit trail, but it deserves to be mentioned.

There's that pesky eternal word again.

Through John, God tells us that we can know we have eternal life. If eternal doesn't mean eternal, how can we possibly know we have it or not? If we can lose our salvation, how can we ever know that we have it? If God tells us we can know it, then he has to be lying to also say we can lose it, doesn't he?

Bingo :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Jedi Knight; A TRUE believer has a lie detector....the Holy Spirit who is the spirit of truth.

Excellent way of reitterating the scripture on this susbject.

Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Jhn 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

This isn't even debateable. There is no such thing as a born of God Christain being deceived into following any other spirit than that of Jesus Christ. To God be the glory! Not to man be the glory for "hanging in there".

:jesus:

 

[DHK]

There is a paucity of logic in your solution DHK - that is more evident to the unbiased objective reader than you might have at first supposed.

Notice how Paul makes the text directly applicable to new testament Christians - when we read the text itself? In fact he makes it apply to the christians of HIS day and to ALL time right down to the END of time -- saying that IN THIS WAY "all Israel" is saved. (With the CONTEXT for Israel being stated explicitly in Romans 9 "They are NOT ALL Israel who are descendants from Abraham" and saying in Romans 2 "He is NOT a Jew who is one OUTWARDLY")

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to natureinto a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles [b]has come in[/b];
26and so all Israel will be saved[/b]; just as it is written,

Your problem (as usual) is taking Scripture out of context, and trying to proof text your position. Romans chapters 9-11 are speaking of the nation of Israel. Paul has diverted his attention to what is happening and going to happen to the nation of Israel. That is his main focus. For you to use this chapter to try and prove your point is ludicrous. It seems that you don't even know what it is talking about. Instead of derailing this thread and discussing the nation of Israel from Romans 11 (which I am not about to do here), I would advise you to start another thread for that purpose. Your text here holds no water. The subject matter is completely different. You are way off base.

 

[webdog]

Excellent way of reitterating the scripture on this susbject.

Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Jhn 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

This isn't even debateable. There is no such thing as a born of God Christain being deceived into following any other spirit than that of Jesus Christ. To God be the glory! Not to man be the glory for "hanging in there".

:jesus:

What do you do with Ephesians 4 and 5, particularly when 4:17-19 states a spirit filled believer can live like a pagan?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: There are some verses which can stand alone as timeless truths forever speaking forth the truth regardless of context.
DHK: The subject matter is completely different. You are way off base.

HP: What a complete farce DHK. What would you think subject matter has to do with anything when there is such a well recognized timeless truth as BR is clearly pointing out???:wavey:

 

[DHK]

What do you do with Ephesians 4 and 5, particularly when 4:17-19 states a spirit filled believer can live like a pagan?

It doesn't.
Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
--We preach this from the pulpits all the time. Don't do or walk as the unbelievers do. Don't be like the world.

Now from the last part of verse 17 to the end of verse 19 is a good description of the unsaved man. It doesn't mean that Christians walk that way. It doesn't mean that they are like that. It only describes the unsaved man and his activities.

Then in verse 20 he specifically says:
Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
--You are not like this and don't do these things because you did not learn to follow after Christ that way.

 

[DHK]

HP: What a complete farce DHK. What would you think subject matter has to do with anything when there is such a well recognized timeless truth as BR is clearly pointing out???:wavey:

Sorry, can't take three chapters out of a book and lift all three out of its context. If you don't understand hermeneutics go take a course in it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Your position is simply arrogance personified. You act as if though context can only be decided by DHK and DHK alone, and if it does not fit DHK's liking, you simply say it can be ignored. What a joke.

 

[webdog]

It doesn't.
Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
--We preach this from the pulpits all the time. Don't do or walk as the unbelievers do. Don't be like the world.

Now from the last part of verse 17 to the end of verse 19 is a good description of the unsaved man. It doesn't mean that Christians walk that way. It doesn't mean that they are like that. It only describes the unsaved man and his activities.

Then in verse 20 he specifically says:
Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
--You are not like this and don't do these things because you did not learn to follow after Christ that way.

When Scripture warns you not to act like the pagans do (walk like the gentiles), it is stating one is able to do just that...or the warning is meaningless. We are told not to suppress the Spirit...meaning we can suppress the Spirit. Both the cal's and the arm's get the "P" wrong.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: When Scripture warns you not to act like the pagans do (walk like the gentiles), it is stating one is able to do just that...or the warning is meaningless. We are told not to suppress the Spirit...meaning we can suppress the Spirit. Both the cal's and the arm's get the "P" wrong.

HP: If one does not believe Webdog, just ask DHK about his remark that all men are liars including all believers. If one is not suppressing the Spirit and serving the enemy of our souls in the midst of a lie, the Pope is not a Catholic.
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: When Scripture warns you not to act like the pagans do (walk like the gentiles), it is stating one is able to do just that

HP: Absolutely. :thumbsup:
You can also be certain that when one walks as do the Gentiles, the same end can be expected. Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Eph 5:3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 BE NOT YE therefore partakers with them.

 

[webdog]

HP: Absolutely. :thumbsup:
You can also be certain that when one walks as do the Gentiles, the same end can be expected. Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Eph 5:3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 BE NOT YE therefore partakers with them.

And with the latter...we disagree The Ezekiel passage is referring to physical death (there is a sin unto death), not the loss of salvation. The three of us (You, DHK and myself) is like playing 3 way rock, paper scissors

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: The Ezekiel passage is referring to physical death

HP: Without reading into the passage a presupposition not supported by the text itself, where is your evidence of that assumption?

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: You must feel you and God are absolutely one in infallible knowledge. That only leads to one conclusion. Anyone that would dare disagree with JK, or believes a lie, disagrees with God and is outside the faith, obviously devoid of the Holy Spirit.ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?[/SIZE]

Can YOU start to believe in the Islam faith? Do YOU believe we came from monkeys? Do YOU think Jesus was just only a good moral teacher but not God? If you say "NO!".......why is that?? I will give you a hint......Holy Spirit "the Spirit of Truth" whom the world cannot recieve. Those who are of God listen to us and those who are not of God do not listen to us. That is how you decern the spirit of truth from error.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: Can YOU start to believe in the Islam faith?

HP: Is that possible? Not and remain a believer.

JK: Do YOU believe we came from monkeys?

HP: No.

JK: Do YOU think Jesus was just only a good moral teacher but not God?

HP: Absolutely not.

JK: If you say no.......why is that? I will give you a hint......Holy Spirit"the Spirit od Truth" whom the world cannot recieve. Those who are of God listen to us and theose who are not of God do not listen to us. That is how you decern the spirit of truth from error.

HP: Yes, I agree, but a fact remains. All that have believed do not ‘always’ listen nor obey. The fact also remains that we are finite beings and can believe lies under certain circumstances. I fully believe those that adhere to OSA have indeed believed a lie, and those that claim that either OSAS is true or God is a liar have been deceived. I am NOT saying that all those believing in OSAS are lost, for God is the Judge of all souls not myself. Doctrine in and of itself saves no one.

Ps 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK, my grandson tells me he has seen every show, and after looking real close, claims you are an imposter.:smilewinkgrin: :tongue3:

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: Is that possible? Not and remain a believer.

HP: No.

HP: Absolutely not.



HP: Yes, I agree, but a fact remains. All that have believed do not ‘always’ listen nor obey. The fact also remains that we are finite beings and can believe lies under certain circumstances. I fully believe those that adhere to OSA have indeed believed a lie, and those that claim that either OSAS is true or God is a liar have been deceived. I am NOT saying that all those believing in OSAS are lost, for God is the Judge of all souls not myself. Doctrine in and of itself saves no one.

Ps 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

I believe what you call a lie "OSAS" is your inability to fully trust in God. To say a real born again christian can fall away and believe in Islma shows you cannot trust Gods plain written words of John 10: 4-5. It's your theology that trips you up and shows me that you have falling from grace instead of simple trust in Christ.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: and shows me that you have falling from grace

HP: Can you explain to the list what you mean by these words?

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: Can you explain to the list what you mean by these words?

Do you get to Heaven by grace? If you say yes "BUT".....you have fallen from grace.

By grace you have been saved. It's grace that gives a TRUE believer the ability to discern the precious from the vile. 1 John 2:20 But you have an unction from the Holy One, and you know all things.