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Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?

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Oh BR you are indeed being silly. Context? Who cares??? Stand back, be silent, and listen intently to the wisdom of DHK:

DHK: There are some verses which can stand alone as timeless truths forever speaking forth the truth regardless of context."

Context only matters if it is a tool to support the presuppositions of DHK period.
 
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If anyone knows anything about Catholicism, this is a novel thought to consider, DHK as a Catholic. The only place he would believe he belonged would be upon the Papal throne. Some Catholic he made, no doubt. :)
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Oh BR you are indeed being silly. Context? Who cares??? Stand back, be silent, and listen intently to the wisdom of DHK:

DHK: There are some verses which can stand alone as timeless truths forever speaking forth the truth regardless of context."

Context only matters if it is a tool to support the presuppositions of DHK period.

I think there is a Lateran council in the dark ages that goes along with that idea in general. :laugh:
 

ccrobinson

Active Member
What's the point of making this thread about DHK? The only reason I can think of for making this thread about DHK is if you can't answer the questions... oh, now I get it.

BobRyan said:
So the lesson of Matt 18 on forgiveness revoked - is the lesson that proves that OSAS is simply man made tradition.

If this were true, then at the moment that God stops forgiving us, eternal life ceases, which means that the so-called eternal life was never really eternal life. This means that Christ himself lied to us when he said we could have eternal life. Since we know that Christ never lied/lies to us, we must conclude that Matthew 18 is not the "forgiveness revoked" doctrine that Bob would have us believe.

Next.
 
Listen to your argument CCRobinson. You and DHK have placed your own finite understanding above God and act as if though your notions are infallible. If anyone in found to be in error, it must be God and not you or DHK. Wow.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.


Are you in His Son?

If "Yes", then God hath given you "eternal life".

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Do you have the Son?

If "Yes", then you have "life" which is the "eternal life" spoken of in this passage.


1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Do you know you have eternal life?

If "No", then you need more milk before you move on to the meats found in many other scriptures.

There is simply no way to defend a pov that contradicts the clear teachings of this passage. Sorry, eternal must be eternal. It is given to those who are the born of God. DHK is right, if it can be taken away then it was not eternal and God lied. This cannot be.

:jesus:
 
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Steaver, then if one is in reality a son, and does in fact have eternal life, it will never be established by mere words saying ‘I am a son’ or ‘Lord Lord’ but rather in deed and in truth.

No one denies that one born again and walking in the Spirit has eternal life. What is being refuted is that one can enter into eternal life, walk with and act like the devil and maintain a sure hope of eternal life. What is being refuted is the notion of imputed righteousness while the will is set on selfishness. What is being refuted is the notion that sin separates but it will not separate one that has claimed to have faith.

In this life we have hope and hope as well as trust can be misplaced. One can certainly be deceived as to ones final standing before God.

If ones says they are in possession of eternal life, they should walk even as He walked. 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
 
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steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Steaver, then if one is in reality a son, and does in fact have eternal life, it will never be established by mere words saying ‘I am a son’ or ‘Lord Lord’ but rather in deed and in truth.

Neither will it be established BY deeds. Eternal life is a "gift" established by Jesus Christ Himself. Deeds do not affect the gift. 1 Cor 3 is very clear that even if a man has bad deeds the deeds will burn yet he himself will be saved.

No one denies that one born again and walking in the Spirit has eternal life. What is being refuted is that one can enter into eternal life, walk with and like the devil and maintain a sure hope of eternal life. What is being refuted is the notion of imputed righteousness while the will is set on selfishness. What is being refuted is the notion that sin separates but it will not separate one that has claimed to have faith.

Until you grasp the word "gift" you will always be mixing up the apples with oranges.

Now if you believe that the born of God have eternal life then that should be the end of this argument that one can lose something that is eternal. You really need to think about what you are holding on to.

In this life we have hope and hope as well as trust can be misplaced. One can certainly be deceived as to ones final standing before God.

Those without Christ can certainly be deceived as evident in Matt 7. But those in Christ cannot be deceived for they have been given the Holy Spirit of truth.

If ones says they are in possession of eternal life, they should walk even as He walked. 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Praise God! We agree!

:thumbsup:
 

ccrobinson

Active Member
Listen to your argument CCRobinson. You and DHK have placed your own finite understanding above God and act as if though your notions are infallible. If anyone in found to be in error, it must be God and not you or DHK. Wow.


I have listened to my argument. I've also listened to yours and find it lacking. You actually believe that God contradicts himself. I believe that God never contradicts himself.

There are 3 alternatives here.

Alternative #1: God is wrong. We'll throw that one out because God is never wrong.

Alternative #2: I'm wrong. Between the 2 of us, I'm the only one that can provide a coherent answer to 1 John 5. You continually ignore the questions about 1 John 5. You dance around the subject, bring up red herring after red herring and go down rabbit trail after rabbit trail and rant about DHK. How about actually answering the question of how long eternal lasts?

Alternative #3: You're wrong. See Answer #2. You focus in on Matthew 18's so-called "forgiveness revoked" and don't even attempt to harmonize the rest of Scripture with it. Without harmonizing it, you would have Christ and God contradicting themselves, which is not possible.


steaver said:
There is simply no way to defend a pov that contradicts the clear teachings of this passage. Sorry, eternal must be eternal. It is given to those who are the born of God. DHK is right, if it can be taken away then it was not eternal and God lied. This cannot be.

Just be aware, steaver, that you're about to be accused of arrogance for having the audacity to believe that God doesn't lie. HP is quite happy believing in an arbitrary and capricious God.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Just be aware, steaver, that you're about to be accused of arrogance for having the audacity to believe that God doesn't lie. HP is quite happy believing in an arbitrary and capricious God.

HP usually treats me pretty respectful although he does get mad at me sometimes if I don't word my questions as not to make them personal. I try to keep them nuetral but do slip up from time to time.

I would like to respectfully suggest that everyone settle down the rhetoric a bit. It is easy to get our dander up and say things we should not. We are on the same team afterall and Paul told us that if we don't exercise love in all things then we basically have nothing to offer that anyone wants to listen to.

Satan takes great pleasure I'm sure when we start hurling the insults. Resist the devil and he will flee. I believe this is a sign of mature Christian. Another sign is humility, confess your sins and ask for forgiveness, from God and from your brothers in Christ. It's tough sometimes, but it does feel good.

:love2:
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
HP: Here are five rules evident to this listener DHK employs in all so-called debates. The one here with BR is certainly no exception at all.
I should allow another moderator to answer (or delete) this, as attacks on moderators are not permitted.
But just for you I will answer your childish post.
1.If a passage is introduced that might even have the possibility of refuting your position, first attack him personally by either calling him a liar or associating the other with blasphemy, heresy, or a cult, even if one of my own making. (the latest manufactured cult being the calling of Church of Christ as a cult)
Do you know what is a cult and what isn't a cult?
Have you ever read a book on cults? On apologetics?
Have you even been to a website that teaches about cults or apologetics?
If not (and it seems that you haven't), I'll do your homework for you:

Here is a sample of some cults:
Here is the source: http://www.carm.org/cults
It might do you some good some day. Note that both SDA, and Church of Christ are on this list as well as the RCC. Most Baptists have known this for years. We aren't concerned about political correctness as you might be. Rather as Jude commands us, we "contend for the faith." The Bible is our authority. We compare movements with the Word of God. We are not ashamed of what others may say.

So, if you post heresy, that which contradicts the Bible, aberrant theology, etc. I will tell you that it is wrong and why. I will not care if you are offended. The truth often hurts. So be it. I don't care about political correctness. I care about the truth.
2. Control the evidence at all cost. Never allow one to interpret your text by another. Demand that any other text, if it can possibly be seen to refute your position, applies to some other argument but not the one at hand.
The "text" is interpreted by the Bible. The Bible interprets itself. It is our duty to find the Bible's interpretation. We don't rely on the ECF or any other religion. If you are speaking about a "text" then the context often determines the meaning of the "text." So, no, I don't control evidence. I offer it. And because of a prejudicial mind you keep on refusing it. A good example of this is the sin nature of man. No matter how much evidence is presented you will deny that man has an inherent sin nature. If Jesus would come down from heaven and stand in front of you and tell you personally that man has an inherent sin nature you would deny it. Your mind is made up. Nothing can change it. I don't control evidence. I offer it; you reject it.
3. Never fairly examine any evidence that runs contrary to my position. Beg the question whenever possible, always returning to ones favorite proof text alone to beat the drum in favor of my argument. Let absolutely nothing serve to encourage me in any way to a fair examination of any text contrary to my firmly held presuppositions.
As in the argument for man's sin nature. You had nothing to offer. You accused David's mother of sin, and then couldn't point to any evidence. It was a shameful accusation that the Bible doesn't support. Even your link didn't support what it claimed.
4. Use my position as a moderator to cut and chop any remarks which might paint my position in an unfavorable light.

I remember deleting most of one post once.
The reason? I have told you perhaps dozens of times that I am not a Calvinist. The entire post not only asserted that I was a Calvinist, but was falsely asserting so-called beliefs (that I did not hold) based on the false idea that I was a Calvinist. That is all slander. I deleted it.
Label all such negative remarks or anyone willing to challenge my remarks as a personal attack so I can ‘warn them.’ Repeated warning give the sophistic indication that something must be unfair about the others argument, but it might just make an impact on the ability of others to make a fair examination of the warnings, so I do it regardless of whether of not there is any thing to justly warn about or not.
You are not the only one that I warn about personal attacks, but you do have a very thin skin and take things very personally. Then when your feelings get hurt you act like a little child and take your anger out in a post like this. This is not acting like an adult; it is childish.
5. Understand that no one but DHK has any right to determine the context of any passage, and simply and conveniently discard context if it runs counter to DHK's presuppositions.
It is a debate forum. The context is the passage from where the text is taken. If I am wrong, then show me. If I am not, then quit being so childish and hence the false accusations.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
--John writes of the record that God has given of His Son. The record is right before us--His Word.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
--This is the record. It is right here before us.
God has given to us (present tense) eternal life. This life is in his Son.
How long is eternal? When does it end? When does eternal suddenly become temporal or can it? If it does, doesn't that make Christ a liar?

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
--John, as the context shows, is speaking of eternal life.
The verse is simple. If you have the Son you have eternal life. If you don't have the Son of God you don't have eternal life. How do you refute this simple truth Bob? How long is eternal? When does it end?

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
--Notice the expression here: "that ye may know." It is not "I hope," "I guess," "maybe," "perhaps" "if I endure to the end," etc. No, the expression is "you may "know that you have eternal life." It is a full assurance. That assurance comes from faith--believing on the name of the Son of God. How long is eternal Bob?
Why can't either HP or Bob answer this post.
How long is eternal? When does eternal fail to be eternal?
 

Jedi Knight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I will stick to my guns "or sword" and say a TRUE believer cannot turn away from the faith. John 10:5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." :godisgood: Never means never! Jesus also said, "because I live you shall live also!"
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member

Here we see the case of believing gentiles explicitly being discussed in "the details" given by Paul in scripture.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to
you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,

14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.


Yet some will argue that the inconvenient details above do not actually identify believing gentiles - but rather the text is speaking of gentiles in general (both unsaved and saved) standiing by faith and being warned not to fall.

Do we have any Bible scholars here who would venture into the actual text and show that those gentiles standing by faith in Rom 11 are not saved? or that they include "the not saved" gentiles?

Anyone?

Because so far no one has ventured to make an actual Bible case for that POV from the actual text of Rom 11.

And so we are left with a most devastating example of saved gentiles being warned about the very real danger of falling -- being removed from the body of Christ just as were unbelieving Jews.

But there is GOOD news in Romans 11 as well.

"He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in UNBELIEF"

How then were some Jews so steeped in unblief in this case? it was via man-made traditions and papal pronouncements that they chose to follow instead of opening their eyes to the inconvenient details of scripture pointing to Jesus as the Messiah.

in Christ,

Bob
 

Amy.G

New Member





But there is GOOD news in Romans 11 as well.

"He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in UNBELIEF"



in Christ,

Bob
Paul is speaking of the nation of Israel, not individuals.

The Bible says it is impossible to be saved "again" if one could lose his salvation.

Heb*6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb*6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb*6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Here we see the case of believing gentiles explicitly being discussed in "the details" given by Paul in scripture.



Yet some will argue that the inconvenient details above do not actually identify believing gentiles - but rather the text is speaking of gentiles in general (both unsaved and saved) standiing by faith and being warned not to fall.

Do we have any Bible scholars here who would venture into the actual text and show that those gentiles standing by faith in Rom 11 are not saved? or that they include "the not saved" gentiles?

Anyone?

Because so far no one has ventured to make an actual Bible case for that POV from the actual text of Rom 11.

And so we are left with a most devastating example of saved gentiles being warned about the very real danger of falling -- being removed from the body of Christ just as were unbelieving Jews.

But there is GOOD news in Romans 11 as well.

"He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in UNBELIEF"

How then were some Jews so steeped in unblief in this case? it was via man-made traditions and papal pronouncements that they chose to follow instead of opening their eyes to the inconvenient details of scripture pointing to Jesus as the Messiah.

in Christ,

Bob
What part of "Romans 11 is not up for discussion in this thread" do you not get. Comprenez vous Anglais? Do you need to converse in another language? If you want to start a thread about Israel feel free to do so. Romans 11, a chapter about Israel is a red herring, and has nothing to with this thread and its topic. Further posts will be deleted as off topic.
 

ccrobinson

Active Member
The logic behind refuting the "forgiveness revoked" "doctrine" is the same logic to be used here.

If God were to "ungraft" believers who stopped believing, then at the moment that God "ungrafts", eternal life ceases, which means that the so-called eternal life was never really eternal life. This means that Christ himself lied to us when he said we could have eternal life. Since we know that Christ never lied/lies to us, we must conclude that Romans 11 does not mean what Bob is trying to tell us it does.

Next.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
The logic behind refuting the "forgiveness revoked" "doctrine" is the same logic to be used here.
Next.
Bob's doctrine of "forgiveness revoked" is unique to Bob himself. He extricates it from one parable, and from one parable alone. But parables don't teach doctrine. They illustrate doctrine that has already been taught elsewhere in the Bible. They cannot teach novel doctrine. But that is what Bob is trying to do with this parable--teach a doctrine that is not taught anywhere else in the Bible. On that point alone he fails, and thus the doctrine is unbiblical. It goes against all principles of hermeneutics.
 
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