Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?

[Andre]

How then is Paul holding up that example of "Being broken off" and "removed" - when speaking to the believing gentiles?

Well - most notably - Paul tells believing gentiles that they are to "fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"

It is the message that Paul gives to the believing gentiles that is the problem for OSAS.

Concur. Paul has clearly identified believing Gentiles and then raised the possibility that they will meet an undesirable end.

I do not see how this text is not relevant to the matter at issue.

 

[BobRyan]

The logic behind refuting the "forgiveness revoked" "doctrine" is the same logic to be used here.

If God were to "ungraft" believers who stopped believing, then at the moment that God "ungrafts", eternal life ceases,

That much is true.

And of that forgiveness revoked lesson in Matt 18 - Christ himself states OUTSIDE the context of the parable "SO shall my Father do to each one of YOU if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

which means that the so-called eternal life was never really eternal life.

The logic there is lacking.

it would be like saying that Adam was not really created alive - if in fact he was doomed to the 2nd death at his fall - and without a Savior would be dead.

"it makes no sense".

This means that Christ himself lied to us

This is the same argument used in the book "The Fath Explained" (a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism) about what happens if the Catholic Church is wrong about bread become the body of Christ -- they argue that this means that Christ lied and the Apostles must have been wrong.

we must conclude that Romans 11 does not mean what Bob is trying to tell us

That is not even remotely "Bible exegesis of Romans 11".

To exegete a chapter you have to first - actually look at it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Concur. Paul has clearly identified believing Gentiles and then raised the possibility that they will meet an undesirable end.

I do not see how this text is not relevant to the matter at issue.

Romans 11 is in fact devastating to the OSAS argument - so one OSAS solution is to request that we not discuss the chapter at all.

But as it turns out - that is not as compelling a Bible solution as they may have first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre: I do not see how this text is not relevant to the matter at issue.

HP: Open your blinded eyes. :laugh:

Cannot you read rules 1-5 of post #239? :wavey::smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

Concur. Paul has clearly identified believing Gentiles and then raised the possibility that they will meet an undesirable end.

I do not see how this text is not relevant to the matter at issue.

First, where does it say the Gentiles in question are believers? I think the context of speaking of Israel being broken off as a whole is speaking to the Gentiles as a whole, not believers. Part of this reason is a true believer would not "boast" that they were grafted in and Israel was broken off, and if a Gentile thought they were grafted in for the sole fact they were a Gentile, they would not understand salvation in the first place. That is NOT the attitude becoming of a believer. Paul is clearly speaking of non fruit bearing Gentiles with this attitude, the same attitude the unbelieving Jews had in rejecting the Messiah when they were broken off as a whole.

Second, how exactly does one become "un-regenerated"?

 

[DHK]

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.


Are you in His Son?

If "Yes", then God hath given you "eternal life".

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Do you have the Son?

If "Yes", then you have "life" which is the "eternal life" spoken of in this passage.


1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Do you know you have eternal life?

If "No", then you need more milk before you move on to the meats found in many other scriptures.

There is simply no way to defend a pov that contradicts the clear teachings of this passage. Sorry, eternal must be eternal. It is given to those who are the born of God. DHK is right, if it can be taken away then it was not eternal and God lied. This cannot be.

:jesus:

To get back on topic let's have HP or Bob directly answer Steaver's post here, paying attention to each one of the verses posted. For once, I would like to see an intelligent response without some rabbit trail going off somewhere else. Will they stand up to the challenge? I doubt it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I have an obligation to attend to, but as soon as I can I will reply directly to the texts in question.

 

[BobRyan]

What part of "Romans 11 is not up for discussion in this thread" do you not get. ...If you want to start a thread about Israel feel free to do so. .

Hint - the Romans 11 topic is not about Israel - it is about the warning in Romans 11 to "you gentiles" that "stand only by your faith".

If you had actually read the posts or the chapter I am sure you would already be fully aware of that by now.

I envite you to read it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

I envite you to read it.

I have, many times over. Start another thread.

 

[BobRyan]

As you wish

 

[Andre]

First, where does it say the Gentiles in question are believers? I think the context of speaking of Israel being broken off as a whole is speaking to the Gentiles as a whole, not believers.

I do not see how such a position can be sustained. The letter is written to the Jew + Gentile church at Rome, that is, a set of believers. Now obviously Paul can and does make observations about non-believers, both Jew and Gentile. But when he makes the statement about Gentiles being "broken off", he is quite clearly addressing those of faith:

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Part of this reason is a true believer would not "boast" that they were grafted in and Israel was broken off,....

I think this is extremely questionable - your premise appears to be that true believers are instantly transformed into a state of advanced character development that places them above things like boasting. I suggest that it is clear that things go not work this way.

...and if a Gentile thought they were grafted in for the sole fact they were a Gentile, they would not understand salvation in the first place.

I disagree. It is clear from Romans 11, not to mention Romans 9, that a major theme of Paul's argument is that, in fact, God has intentionally hardened (most) Jews precisely so that the possibility of salvation can be extended to Gentiles.

Second, how exactly does one become "un-regenerated"?

I politely suggest that you have implicitly bought into a "one-step" model of the justification / salvation of the human person - that one minute "we're lost" and the next "we're saved". I do not think the scriptures support such a position.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not see how such a position can be sustained. The letter is written to the Jew + Gentile church at Rome, that is, a set of believers. Now obviously Paul can and does make observations about non-believers, both Jew and Gentile. But when he makes the statement about Gentiles being "broken off", he is quite clearly addressing those of faith:

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
.

Agreed.

It is very difficult to miss that point.

However DHK asks that we only discuss that problem with OSAS on its own thread-

So I encourage all who wish to explore that text to click here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=64338


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: Second, how exactly does one become "un-regenerated"?

HP: The question should be, will I end up making heaven my eternal home if in fact I continue on the path I am on?.... NOT ‘how does one become un-regenerate.’ The question should be, will ones belief(s) in the end simply be judged as believing in vain? It might even be, will a Holy and Just God fail to judge my actions in the same manner He has promised to judge all sin in the end, knowing full well that God is NOT a respecter of persons?

 

[DHK]

HP: The question should be, will I end up making heaven my eternal home if in fact I continue on the path I am on?.... NOT ‘how does one become un-regenerate.’ The question should be, will ones belief(s) in the end simply be judged as believing in vain? It might even be, will a Holy and Just God fail to judge my actions in the same manner He has promised to judge all sin in the end, knowing full well that God is NOT a respecter of persons?

Here is what I will be judged on:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God will not judge me for my sin (in relation to my salvation).
I can never be separated from the love of God, or even from God himself.

Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

God does not remember my sins.
I will never be condemned by them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: God does not remember my sins.
I will never be condemned by them.

HP: Boy are you ever in for a serious surprise if in fact you have any sins of which you have not repented of. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall ALL likewise perish.

 

[annsni]

The verse that speaks to me so completely on the security of the life of a believer is 2 Corinthians 1:20-22 "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."

With God's seal on him and the Spirit as a guarantee (a "down payment" on the life of a believer with full promise of the completion of the payment), how could we ever lose our salvation? It is Christ who gives us new birth - Christ who makes us a new creation where the old is GONE GONE GONE. Praise God for His truth. We do not EVER want to walk away when we are His. Walking away from God is an impossibility for me. I can't ever imagine that ever in my life.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: makes us a new creation where the old is GONE GONE GONE

HP: Hogwash. Do you think you are teaching a bunch of blind deaf mutes? What's gone??? How is sin (supposed to be the old manner in which we lived) 'gone' if you are CONTINUING TO SIN AS WE ARE TOLD ALMOST DAILY ON THIS LIST, THAT WE ALL SIN AND ALL ARE CONTINUALLY FOUND TO BE LIARS???? Is God a blind deaf mute as well?

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[DHK]

HP: Boy are you ever in for a serious surprise if in fact you have any sins of which you have not repented of. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall ALL likewise perish.

And I did. I put my faith and trust in Christ, at which time I repented of my rebellion toward God, and was saved.

There is no teaching in the Bible that says "One must repent of all their sins" in order to be saved.

 

[annsni]

HP: Hogwash. Do you think you are teaching a bunch of blind deaf mutes? What's gone??? How is sin (supposed to be the old manner in which we lived) 'gone' if you are CONTINUING TO SIN AS WE ARE TOLD ALMOST DAILY ON THIS LIST, THAT WE ALL SIN AND ALL ARE CONTINUALLY FOUND TO BE LIARS???? Is God a blind deaf mute as well?

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So 2 Corinthians 5:17 is hogwash?

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: at which time I repented of my rebellion toward God, and was saved.

HP: What does it mean to repent DHK? Can one be repentant and still continue in their same old sins in the same old way? What is the evidence that one has repented? Was John the Baptist beside himself when he required ‘fruit’ of repentance before he would baptize them?