Can we judge salvation?

[Amy.G]

All you have to do is take a survey of fellow church members and hear the stories of why some left a particular church. Pastors do horrible things sometimes. Certainly not all pastors, and Bro. Bob didn't say that.

 

[Brother Bob]

My two cents:

If a person has no testimony and no regard for the Lord and the things of God, it is a pretty good indication that something isn't quite right.

Most people I know who are not saved, believe contrary to the gospel, have no testimony, and have no regard for morality.

There are a lot of people using terminology today that sounds "Christian." I work with a person who talks about "God" all the time and how much she talks to "God" and she and "God" have a wonderful relationship. She even reads the Bible. But she is not a Christian. She professes no testimony about a day and time when she realized that Christ died for her sins and that she asked Him to save her. She believes that "God" will accept you as you are and that there is no need to change. You can be who you are, and try to be a good person, and you will go to heaven. Even though she believes she is right with "God" she knows the difference between being a born-again Christian and not being one because she says she is not one. However, praise the Lord, I have had several opportunities to share the gospel with her and she has been interested in listening.

I believe some of the scriptures already mentioned in this topic, about those who are fornicators, etc. not entering the kingdom, are speaking of those who habitually do these things without any conscience or care that they are sinful in God's eyes and have no personal salvation testimony about a time in their life where they asked Christ to save them. There are a lot of people in America today who believe they are "Christian" just because they go to church, they are a good person, or God won't really send anyone to hell. I've heard all of these and more from people that did not profess Christ as their Savior but who call themselves "Christian."

If there were no way to tell if a person was not saved how would we know who to evangelize? If someone professes to belong to Christ but has sinned or has been living in sin, they need a brother to correct them in firmness and love, as it says in James. The one who has been born-again will come to repentance, like the prodigal son, if God has not taken him/her home first, since there is a sin unto death where God sometimes decides to take the sinning saint home instead of letting him remain in this life living in a particular sin. However, people who continue on in habitual wickedness, with no regard of Scripture, and partaking in things such as abortion, the support of those who seek abortion, fornication, etc. without desiring repentance, or believing they have no need to repent of these things, are probably in danger and need someone to share the truth with them so they can be sure whether they have really asked Christ to save them or not. Maybe they were exposed to a false gospel and need to hear it as God has said it, for their own sake. Jesus spoke of the good tree and corrupt tree and its respective fruit immediately preceding his warning that not all who say "Lord, Lord" truly know Him. I had a friend once (we grew up together) who claimed she was a Christian but who believed she could break God's rules set for sexual purity, vile language, abortion, without believing she needed to repent of her beliefs. For me, Romans 1:28-2:6 is rather ominous in addressing behaviors that are practiced without conscience by those who might "look" like Christians on the outside but who practice these things, without repentance, in their lives. If the fruit is continually rotten and a tree never produces good fruit... I believe that is what Jesus was talking about. He didn't tell us this, however, so that we could go around and check everyone's fruit but so that we would treat those people with love and so that we would know how to approach them and share the truth with them so that they can realize their need for Him and truly be saved. If I never asked the Lord to save me and just thought I was a Christian, I would hope someone would recognize that and tell me so I could know.

I also believe that His analogy is explaining that a particular tree produces a particular kind of fruit. Oranges don't grow from grape vines and apples don't grow on olive trees. So, a Christian tree will produce Christian fruit, not the fruit of an unsaved tree, or the fruit it once produced before it became a Christian tree. This is not saying that a Christian cannot sin, but it shows that the habitual fruit of the believer will be Christian fruit more than the fruit of wickedness.

It comes down to whether or not the person has a personal testimony (profession) of having accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. It starts there. For those who do not profess Him as their Savior, we shouldn't judge them harshly because they are lost and need us to share the gospel with them so they can know the truth.

What about that Christian that does sin, as you say. If you saw them while they were sinning, would you still know they were saved, or would you have to wait until they quit sinning?? In other words, would you know they were saved at a particular time in their life, but when they were bearing corrupt fruit, would you think they were unsaved, but in your words they would be saved, or would you know when that Christian was sinning or not sinning, he was saved???

 

[Brother Bob]

All you have to do is take a survey of fellow church members and hear the stories of why some left a particular church. Pastors do horrible things sometimes. Certainly not all pastors, and Bro. Bob didn't say that.

Thanks Amy...........:thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

You're welcome Bro. Bob.

I agree that we cannot tell where a person is in their walk with God.
We can make an assessment, so to speak, but only God knows the heart and you know I believe He will discipline those who are not living as they should. He will make sure they come back to Him if they have strayed.

 

[mcdirector]

I made a poll in the poll forum. I think many of us do personally know of someone . . .

 

[Brother Bob]

I made a poll in the poll forum. I think many of us do personally know of someone . . .

Its hard to think of someone who at one time or another, has not heard of someone in that manner. Thanks mcdirector.

BBob,

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Brother Bob,

Your question was if I had known any pastors or laymen who had run off with another woman. It was not if I had heard of any.

But truthfully, I had not heard of any either until coming on this board.

I also can truthfully say I have not known any pastor's, laypeople, missionaries, or evangelists that have run off with someone else's spouse... or been accused of molestation, adultery, or pedophilia.


As to being sheltered. Sometimes I wish I were sheltered. I did nothave a sheltered life. If I had, I would not have ended up in prison as a teen in the 70's.

I am sheltered since my Salvation... sheltered in the arms of God.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,

Your question was if I had known any pastors or laymen who had run off with another woman. It was not if I had heard of any.

But truthfully, I had not heard of any either until coming on this board.

I also can truthfully say I have not known any pastor's, laypeople, missionaries, or evangelists that have run off with someone else's spouse... or been accused of molestation, adultery, or pedophilia.


As to being sheltered. Sometimes I wish I were sheltered. I did nothave a sheltered life. If I had, I would not have ended up in prison as a teen in the 70's.

I am sheltered since my Salvation... sheltered in the arms of God.

Ok Sfic; I understand. I wish I didn't know of any. I wish there was not any who have done and do such things.

BBob,

 

[christianyouth]

Just thought I would add an experience that happened in my own life that showed me the difference between those saved and lost :

For my birthday, a friend of mine wanted to have me over and take me to go see the movie, "Pirates of the Carribean 2". I had a battle within me, because I know how popular movies are now days. Full of sexual innuendos, indecent women and men, etc, basically things that God hates. So I caved in because I didn't want to be considered a Puritan. The whole time, entering into the movie theater even, I was under conviction. The movie started, and sure enough, sexual innuendos and voluptuous women. Literally had to close my eyes and hope that my friends wouldn't see me. We left the movie theater, they were talking about how great a movie it was, the kids parents were saying how great a movie it was, and in that moment, I realized they were lost.

Laugh at things God hates? Watch filth on TV in the name of Christian freedom? These are not the signs of a Christian. Of course, these people also didn't have a passion for the lost, a desire to hear God's Word preached and taught, a desire to be separate, and most of all, that which reveals the heart conditions of many : They had no hatred of sin.

Now, about that comment Dan. E, it's not an issue of someone not sharing my convictions. It's an issue of people laughing at things that nailed their supposed Savior to the cross. And then to talk about it amongst Christians? No. If any man loves the world, as SFIC has said on another thread, the love of the Father is not in him.

What do we expect when we preach a Gospel that has redefined repentance and doesn't mention temptation, tribulation, and persecution? Our Gospel basically dispenses get out of hell free cards. And it is destroying Christianity here in the States.

 

[Amy.G]

We left the movie theater, they were talking about how great a movie it was, the kids parents were saying how great a movie it was, and in that moment, I realized they were lost.

So anyone who liked Pirates 2 is lost?

Statements like yours are why it's best left to God to decide who's saved and who's not.

 

[The Scribe]

So anyone who liked Pirates 2 is lost?

Statements like yours are why it's best left to God to decide who's saved and who's not.

Possibly, Full of sexual innuendos, indecent women and men, etc, basically things that God hates.

By their fruits they shall be known.

 

[Amy.G]

Possibly, Full of sexual innuendos, indecent women and men, etc, basically things that God hates.

By their fruits they shall be known.

Thank you Jesus that You and You alone are judge!

Mat 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
Mat 7:2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

I could probably find a few things out about you that I think are ungodly and then I could pronounce you UNSAVED.

 

[The Scribe]

Thank you Jesus that You and You alone are judge!
I could probably find a few things out about you that I think are ungodly and then I could pronounce you UNSAVED.

Sound like you're judging me without cause and trying to justify sin.

Psalms 101 (KJV)
1: I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O LORD, will I sing.
2: I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.
3: I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.
4: A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person.
5: Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
6: Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me.
7: He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.
8: I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.


Luke 6:46 (KJV)
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Matthew 7:20-21 (KJV)
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Amy.G]

Sound like you're judging me without cause and trying to justify sin.

It is you who have judged someone's salvation simply by a movie they have watched.

You also judged Christianyouth as guilty and possibly unsaved since he also watched the movie in spite of his feelings of conviction that it was wrong.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

The Word of God has already judged the one who loves the things of the world.

Is pleasure in unrighteousness of the Father? or is it worldly?

christianyouth said he did not enjoy that movie, did he? he said he felt conviction and closed his eyes to it.

 

[mcdirector]

Here lies the quandry of having this conversation at all . . .

Of course we have to judge. God made us with reasoning minds. It's when we write out a laundry list of things to do and not to do that we turn into pharisees.

Suppose that very family that you were so concerned with went home and became convicted about the things they saw later? How long will you give conviction? Tonight? Tomorrow? Next week? Spiritual maturity plays a part in that.

Suppose one was already under conviction and didn't know how to start telling his partents because of the cirucumstances?

 

[Amy.G]

Here lies the quandry of having this conversation at all . . .

Of course we have to judge. God made us with reasoning minds. It's when we write out a laundry list of things to do and not to do that we turn into pharisees.

Suppose that very family that you were so concerned with went home and became convicted about the things they saw later? How long will you give conviction? Tonight? Tomorrow? Next week? Spiritual maturity plays a part in that.

Suppose one was already under conviction and didn't know how to start telling his partents because of the cirucumstances?

Well said. :thumbs:

 

[The Scribe]

It is you who have judged someone's salvation simply by a movie they have watched.

You also judged Christianyouth as guilty and possibly unsaved since he also watched the movie in spite of his feelings of conviction that it was wrong.

Where did I judge him? He said he was closing his eyes during the movie.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

The Word of God has already judged the one who loves the things of the world.

Is pleasure in unrighteousness of the Father? or is it worldly?

christianyouth said he did not enjoy that movie, did he? he said he felt conviction and closed his eyes to it.

 

[Amy.G]

Where did I judge him? He said he was closing his eyes during the movie.

Originally Posted by Amy.G
So anyone who liked Pirates 2 is lost?

Originally Posted by The Scribe
Possibly, Full of sexual innuendos, indecent women and men, etc, basically things that God hates.

You made a judgement against anyone who watches certain movies that you think are wrong.

 

[The Scribe]

Here lies the quandry of having this conversation at all . . .

Of course we have to judge. God made us with reasoning minds. It's when we write out a laundry list of things to do and not to do that we turn into pharisees.

We don't have to make up laws or lists. They are already in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV)
9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 2:15 (KJV)
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.