christianyouth said:
Most people who I run into say that it is not, so I have a challenge(not being combative) for those who believe that we cannot discern the difference between a saved person and a lost person : Produce a verse or verses that you think states that we cannot know if someone is saved. (I will be open to the rebuke of Scripture. Besides the wheat and the tares, I have not found any verse that suggests this.)
For those who are undecided on this issue, here are some verses that say we can judge someones salvation by the lifestyle that they live:
Matthew 7:13-20, Ephesians 5:5, Galatians 5:19-21, and many verses in 1 John. 1 John 2:3,4 is a good one, but many more.
Each case you mentioned:
1. Matthew 7:13-23 (interestingly the chapter begins with "Judge not lest you be judged).
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
"By their fruits ye shall know them" per the context only teaches that we can know who FALSE PROPHETS are, not that we can know who is and isn't saved. The point is identifying FALSE teachers/prophets, not prescribing some system of detecting who is and isn't saved.
Interestingly, they CAST OUT DEMONS in the name of God and PROPHESIED in His name and did MANY WONDERFUL WORKS (of course this is THEIR CLAIM, not necessarily the Lord saying it is so).
2. Ephesians 5:1-8
1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
The most immediate problem here is verse 7 where BELIEVERS are warned not to be partakers with them. That immediately cancels out this as a MEASURING RULE to determine who is and isn't saved. Clearly BELIEVERS can be partakers with them or else it would not exist as a WARNING.
And it is true, whoremongers and so on will not have "any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God". The use of these adjectives are describing what they are. Believers, on the other hand, are not described as this because we are made new, we are now described as "children of light".
But it makes clear we can partake of these things and are told not to so to use such behavior as a tool to determine who is and isn't saved fails here since clearly believers can do this.
3. Galatians 5:16-25
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Again, it makes clear believers can do the things that unbelievers do. Verse 16 commands us to "walk in the Spirit" (obviously addressing believers since unbelievers do not have the Spirit) and we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
So it is clear we, as believers, can fulfill the lust of the flesh and imitate unbelievers who are fornicators and so on. Again then, as a prescription to determine who is and isn't a believer, this fails. You may be looking at a believer who is failing to "walk in the Spirit" and is fulfilling the lust of the flesh and in the erroneous belief their behavior is what identifies whether they are saved or not you wrongly judged them to not be saved when really you simply do not know.
4. 1 John 2:1-6
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Problematic here is verse 3. It is not teaching that you and I can know who is or isn't saved but that we as individuals can know within ourselves that we know God because we are positive toward His Word. At no place is an outside evaluation of others being promoted but an internal examination.
Also, verse 6 presents a problematic ALTERNATIVE. It says "He that saith he abideth in him, OUGHT himself also to walk, even as he walked". If you say you are in the military, you should act accordingly. If you say you are in Christ, you should (OUGHT) to act accordingly. This is not a guarantee that you will however, so in light of the alternative being recognized, that we won't necessarily do so but OUGHT TO, then a believer can quite clearly NOT walk in the light. So judging another's salvation based on walking in the light here, again cannot rightly be prescribed or accomplished.
Forgoing any other arguments, the Bible is explicit regarding judging who is and isn't saved and that is strictly forbidden and only the mind of God is given the right and responsibility to make that determination.
