Did Jesus cease being God's Son on the Cross?

[JesusFan]

You'll appreciate this -

I've visited churches in Japan. Where I am at they teach my view of the Cross (you, @Martin Marprelate , and @DaveXR650 suggested no Baptist church held my view).

The sermon today was about redemption and I fully expected a Calvinistic presentation (Penal Substitution Theory), especially since the pastor attended Westminster seminary). But I was delighted to find otherwise.

He preached - reading a passage, explaining with Scripture, and applying the passage.

These were small churches (about 150 attending), but they are very active in the area and seeing people reached with the gospel.

It was strange in a way. The preacher was Japaneese. He would preach and pause for another to interpret in English. The songs were one verse in Japanese and the next in English (interpretations on the screen). I wish our churches were as alive as the ones here.

So what was the basis that they can have their sins forgiven by God given to them ?

 

[JonC]

This is an encouraging email. I'm guessing you are down in S. Honshu, maybe in the Kansai area. I've heard from several further north that there is a desperate need in the churches for revival, and there are many muboku (pastorless) churches.

Yes, in the Kansai area.

 

[JonC]

So what was the basis that they can have their sins forgiven by God given to them ?

We have already gone through this several times. I do not believe one more time will help you.

I was simply sharing an encouraging moment I experienced.

The pastor presented forgiveness as being obtained exactly as Scripture states forgiveness is obtained (one must repent).

 

[Reynolds]

Here is what Luther wrote in his commentary on Galatians:

"Without any doubt, the prophets in the Spirit saw that Christ would be the greatest transgressor, assassin, adulterer, thief, rebel, and blasphemer that ever existed on earth. When He was made the sacrifice for the sins of the entire world, He is no longer innocent and without sin, He is no longer the Son of God"
(Luther, Commentary on St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians (1535), Lecture 20 on Galatians 3:13)
What things in the claim above to you find troubling (wrong)?




For me, Luther's words constitute blasphemy against Jesus.

Jesus never became immoral.
Jesus never ceased being God's Son.

Additionally, the prophets in the Spirit never claimed either to be the case.


Early on Luther articulated what Luthersns call "Vicarious Atonement" (it's Substitution Theory). But it was very simplistic (Jesus died so we may live).

I can't help but to see a caution here not to get carried away by philosophy.


For the record, this is what you lead with on another thread that you closed and now opened again. (It's nice being the Moderator). But that is how Luther got into this conversation. After you made the erroneous claim that Lutherans do not believe penal substitution I posted a video of probably the most popular internet era Lutheran where he explained your error.

Even though I tried to be fair and show that not all Lutherans believe the same thing, you turned around and started some kind of false garbage with me and @Martin Marprelate where you, on your own, without us stating it or endorsing it, assign us a doctrinal position of your choosing, just to slander us. This is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen on this board.


What a disgrace! It's not even fair to the Lutherans. Your views of the atonement sound very similar to some of the modern theories and indeed, when you try to look up someone who agrees with your views you usually end up on a site where their other beliefs include gay acceptance and critical race theory. Time and time again the books, and theologians who supposedly support you are either like that, or it turns out they don't really support your view after all. That is the truth of how the Lutherans got into this discussion.

In addition to that dishonesty, you mentioned me in this thread too, and then closed the thread immediately. You have since gone back and taken out your post closing the thread and the mention of me but you forgot that it is still on my notification - it did not disappear when you did that.
You have lost this silly pursuit of the destruction of penal substitution and now, being out of any rational argument, have resorted to what amounts to weird behavior and slander. Good job.


John the Baptist called Him "the lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Being the unspotted Lamb of God, Christ was personally innocent. But because He took the sins of the world His sinlessness was defiled with the sinfulness of the world. Whatever sins I, you, all of us have committed or shall commit, they are Christ's sins as if He had committed them Himself. Our sins have to be Christ's sins or we shall perish forever.

What I pasted there is a couple of paragraphs down from the partial quote you gave from Luther's commentary. If you read the whole thing he explains what he meant by the part you quoted and why he said it like that. It makes sense when you read the whole thing. Once again, I have never seen anything like what is being done here.

Personally I believe Luther added to Penal Substitution Theory in his philosophy of the Atonement.

I held and taught Penal Substitution Theory for a long time, but I never thought that Jesus ceased being the Son of God.

The reason I posted Luther's comments from his commentary on Galations 3:13 is that @Martin Marprelate said to read it because it proved Luther firmly held the Theory.

Think about many of those theologians who hold my belief of Christ's work. How did you dismiss them? You pointed out other issues that I do not believe. Boyd, for example, holds my belief that Scripture states what occurred on the Cross. But he holds open theology in regard to omniscience (something I disagree with).

So why should I not link Luther to your belief when you provided Luther, and you and @Martin Marprelate posted that was Penal Substitution Theory?

If I was wrong then I apologize (to you, @Martin Marprelate needs to explain why Luther's statement is not Penal Substitution Theory).



Do you believe that the doctrine Jesus ceased being the Son of God is heresy or do you believe it is true?




.


Actually Lutheran theologians have pointed out Luther was unbiblical on that one. The defence is that the Atonement was never Luther's focus.

I'm not Lutheran, but I still hate when people try to rewrite history. The man was used by God, but he was also very wrong here. We can't start worshipping men.


You aren't qualified to comment on whether Luther was wrong here. You brought Luther into this in the first place. Then, when I put up a Youtube of a popular Lutheran theologian refuting you on Lutheran theology you go with a partial quote from his commentary on Galatians and call it blasphemy. I was just pointing out that you have to read the whole chapter 3 commentary, rather than grab excerpts, to understand what Luther was saying. And it was Luther saying that since he wrote the commentary.

It's one thing to worship men. It's another to not listen to anybody. What Luther meant in that commentary was that "Our sins have to be Christ's sins or we shall perish forever". If he is correct then you are trying to lead people astray on here. This is very serious, far more so than a debate on free will or predestination.


But you are not qualified to claim that it is blasphemy without also quoting his further explanation of what he meant.

You yourself have done a great job of showing the value of a graduate degree in theology. But I'll do you one better. The reason I'm not qualified to comment on Luther's views on the atonement is that I had never in my life read his views till yesterday. Yet I was able to get a charge of blasphemy and now "veneration" in one day. That's an accomplishment.

Seriously Jon. Your statements in the above post are looking beyond disorganized. Almost like there is something wrong with you. You go ahead and pull that silliness with my blessing and go ahead and delete this post in response and what do you say we just stop this. Otherwise it will remain up for all to see.

Luther must have had too much beer when he said that. An eternal God can never cease being an eternal God.

 

[JonC]

Luther must have had too much beer when he said that. An eternal God can never cease being an eternal God.

Well, you k ow those old German guys and their beer.

 

[JonC]

So what was the basis that they can have their sins forgiven by God given to them ?

Ok....one last time.

The foundation of our forgiveness is Christ to Whom we turn (repentance). Our salvation depends on us being made new creations in Christ.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, in the Kansai area.

There are some great churches down there.

 

[Aaron]

Ok....one last time.

The foundation of our forgiveness is Christ to Whom we turn (repentance). Our salvation depends on us being made new creations in Christ.

Christ's death is the basis of the forgiveness of sin.

[Mat 26:28 KJV] 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

[Heb 9:22 KJV] 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[kyredneck]

Christ's death is the basis of the forgiveness of sin.

Romans Chapter 5

10​	For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;

 

[JesusFan]

Ok....one last time.

The foundation of our forgiveness is Christ to Whom we turn (repentance). Our salvation depends on us being made new creations in Christ.

On what basis though is the Father able to redeem us, as there must still be a basis for salvation, to allow Him to stay Holy while forgiving sinners?

 

[kyredneck]

On what basis though is the Father able to redeem us, as there must still be a basis for salvation, to allow Him to stay Holy while forgiving sinners?

Egad! It's His very nature!

Psalms Chapter 103

8​	Jehovah is merciful and gracious, Slow to anger, and abundant in lovingkindness.
9​	He will not always chide; Neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10​	He hath not dealt with us after our sins, Nor rewarded us after our iniquities.
11​	For as the heavens are high above the earth, So great is his lovingkindness toward them that fear him.
12​	As far as the east is from the west, So far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
13​	Like as a father pitieth his children, So Jehovah pitieth them that fear him.
14​	For he knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust.

 

[JesusFan]

Egad! It's His very nature!

Psalms Chapter 103

8​	Jehovah is merciful and gracious, Slow to anger, and abundant in lovingkindness.
9​	He will not always chide; Neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10​	He hath not dealt with us after our sins, Nor rewarded us after our iniquities.
11​	For as the heavens are high above the earth, So great is his lovingkindness toward them that fear him.
12​	As far as the east is from the west, So far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
13​	Like as a father pitieth his children, So Jehovah pitieth them that fear him.
14​	For he knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust.

Still needs to have a basis to do that, as being Holy, cannot just forgive a sinner without a sin atonement given for their sins

 

[kyredneck]

Still needs to have a basis to do that, as being Holy, cannot just forgive a sinner without a sin atonement given for their sins

So YOU'RE dictating what God can and cannot do?

 

[JesusFan]

So YOU'RE dictating what God can and cannot do?

No, just stating that not even God can just say a sinner is now saved without a sin atonement being offered and accepted by Him

 

[kyredneck]

No, just stating that not even God can just say a sinner is now saved without a sin atonement being offered and accepted by Him

Wow

 

[Charlie24]

No, just stating that not even God can just say a sinner is now saved without a sin atonement being offered and accepted by Him

God has Laws that He created and even He must abide by them.

He could speak the universe into existence, but he couldn't speak away man's sin.

 

[JesusFan]

Wow

God cannot do anything that would be against His very nature and attributes

 

[JesusFan]

God has Laws that He created and even He must abide by them.

He could speak the universe into existence, but he couldn't speak away man's sin.

God cannot just say "make it so" and forgive our sins, as soul that sins must die, must be judged for sinning

 

[kyredneck]

God has Laws that He created and even He must abide by them.

He could speak the universe into existence, but he couldn't speak away man's sin.

God cannot just say "make it so" and forgive our sins, as soul that sins must die, must be judged for sinning

Scripture please.

 

[Charlie24]

God cannot just say "make it so" and forgive our sins, as soul that sins must die, must be judged for sinning

Yes, before the foundation of the world God created a plan for man's sin to be forgiven.

That way is the only way, there is no alternative.