history lesson

[BobRyan]

You see, I have to fight illogic that makes
first = one and only one.
Sorry, 'first' does NOT mean the same as
'one and only one'.

Is that really "The FIRST time you said that" Ed??


According to your strained logic we should all say "YES! That is the FIRST time Ed said that".

Because as you are claiming "first does not mean first -- it means one of many not necessarily the first one in Ed-eese".

But surely you see that such double-speak only exposes the extent to which "This the FIRST resurrection" does not fit your desired outcome.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here again we see the unnatural language of your view and contrast that with what we actually find in scripture -- noting that such language is NEVER used in scripture.

Ed
1 each resurrection1s of the just (in Christ):
1a - part of the raputure2
(start of the Tribulation day/week/7-years)
1b - part of the resurrection2
(end of the Tribulation day/week/7-years)

2 each resurrection1s of the just (in Christ):
1 - part of the raputure2
2 - part of the resurrection2

Any time "resurrection1s ...2-part of the resurrection2" has to be posted -- the objective unbiased reader will instantly discern a flaming red flag of warning -- something is "amiss".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
//Daniel 9 starts with a 70 year timeline
prophecy – which is in fact a chronological
sequence - given by Jeremiah.
This timeline prophecy of 70 years – LIKE
ALL timeline prophecies in scripture, is contiguous! ... //

Ed
Actually, all timeline prophecies in scriptures
are contiguous, if you close up the gaps.

Good double-speak perhapse "legaleeze" in some language -- but as it turns out no Bible chronological sequences survive the abuse of inserting gaps of unknown time into them.

Notice how the 70 years of Dan 9:1-5 would be totally wrecked with such wild inserts?

 

[BobRyan]

BTW, I value BobRyan's opinion on scriptural
matters more than John Gill, Calvin, Zwingli,
Geneva Bible commentary writers, SDA founders,
Mormon founders, and B'hai founders..
I get to converse with Brother BobRyan but not
those other guys (persons).

Agreed - but in your comment below you appeared to want to claim that those who make claims such as did good Baptists like John Gill and the reformers of the Geneva Bible should be classed with mormons and Baha'i

(Hence my response to that point showing that John Gill is not of the ilk you are describing)

So your late 19th Century (1801-1900) 'new
revelation' from God is weak (it's weakness exceeded
only by the Christ of the inner chambers /Mormon/
and the Christ of the Desert /Baha'i/ ).

I'll stick with the futurist view (33AD-present, well except from
325AD to 1500AD it was usurped by a women:
the Whore of Revelation 17, also known as: preterist),
pre-millinnial view (33AD-present, well except from
325AD to 1500AD it was usurped by a women:
the Whore of Revelation 17, also known as: post-millinnial)
.

The 70 weeks - 490 year timeline of daniel started in 456 BC and that means it ended shortly after Christ was crucified just as predicted by Daniel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

//Since the above book has been making
bestseller lists lately, don't you want to know
what many are now finding out so that
you will be able to answer them?//

My Eschatology is based on the writtings of
people like: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John,
Paul, Peter & James. Unless they change
their books, I won't be changing my Eschatology.

I recommend the non-eschatological book
by LaHaye called HOW TO STUDY
THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF,
Revised and Expanded Edition (Harvest
House, 1998, ISBN 1-56507-631-1).
It is the best, most accurate book
Tim LaHaye ever wrote.
I don't get my eschatology from LaHaye,
ten Boom, MacPhearson, Walvoord,
John Nelson Darby, Schofield, or THE COMPLETE
IDIOT'S GUIDE TO THE LAST DAYS
by Richard H. Perry (Alpha Books/Penguin Group,
2006, IBSN 1-59257-561-7).
---------------------------------

Here is what I've found to be the four most popular
time lines of Eschatology. Obviously I believe
one more than the others: pretribulation rapture2
I've also added the first date I have found these
viewpoints clearly stated. (Note the fourness of FIRST
used here )
---------------------

x-mill = x-millennial: the relationship of the Millennial (1,000 year)
Messianic Reign of Christ, and His Second Coming
('pre-' means the Second coming is before the Millenniuml)

x-trib = x-tribulation: the relationship of the tribulation
and the rapture/resurrection ('pre-' means the
rapture/resurrection comes before the Tribulation period)

62AD (Thessalonians 2)
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

1920AD -
Post-trib pre-mill ONLY outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

1580AD -
Post-trib a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
(same as 2. Tribulation time)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. spiritual MK=millennial kingdom, in heaven
5. spiritual new heaven & new earth

325AD - Done-did preterist a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection -- already happened
2. Tribulation time -- you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event -- already happened
4. spiritual MK=millennial kingdom -- already happened
5. new heaven & new earth -- you are here

 

[BobRyan]

John Gill’s commentary on Dan 9:25
it is best therefore to interpret this of a royal edict, the order or commandment of a king of Persia to rebuild Jerusalem; and it seems correct to reckon the number given, either from the seventh, or rather from the twentieth, of Artaxerxes Longimanus before mentioned; and either these reckonings, as Bishop Chandler F3 observes, are sufficient for our purpose, to show the completion of the prophecy in Christ:

Quote:
``the commencement of the weeks (as he remarks) must be either from the seventh of Artaxerxes, which falls on 457 B.C. or from the twentieth of Artaxerxes; (add to 457 B.C., twenty six years after Christ, which is the number that four hundred and eighty three years, or sixty nine weeks, exceeds four hundred and fifty seven years); and you are brought to the beginning of John the Baptist's preaching up the advent of the Messiah; add seven years or one week to the former, and you come to the thirty third year of A.D. which was the year of Jesus Christ's death[/b] or else compute four hundred and ninety years, the whole seventy weeks, from the seventh of Artaxerxes, by subtracting four hundred and fifty seven years (the space of time between that year and the beginning of A.D.) from four hundred and ninety, and there remains thirty three, the year of our Lord's death. Let the twentieth of Artaxerxes be the date of the seventy weeks, which is 455 B.C. and reckon sixty nine weeks of Chaldean years; seventy Chaldee years being equal to sixty nine Julian; and so four hundred and seventy eight Julian years making four hundred and eighty three Chaldee years, and they end in the thirty third year after Christ, or the passover following F4'';
the several particulars into which these seventy weeks are divided: unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and
two weeks;
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/vi...=009&verse=025

The 490 years ends in the 30's -- starting in the 450's B.C ending in the 30's AD.

That 490 year timeline is a problem for the pre-trib view because they need to insert an unspecified gap of years before the last 7 years in the timeline.

something that no prophecy in all of scripture could survive and still form a timeline.

 

[Ed Edwards]

// That 490 year timeline is a problem for the pre-trib view
because they need to insert an unspecified gap
of years before the last 7 years in the timeline. //

I find "what God hath wroght" to be
NO PROBLEM -- NO PROBLEM for the pre-trib view,
no problem for me, certainly no problem for Paul
who explained it & no problem for the God who
created the gap.

Here is a scripture I believe answers the
question: "Why does eschatology Matter?

2Pe 3:11-15 (KJV1611 Edition):
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolued,
What maner of persons ought ye to be in all holy
conuersation, and godlinesse,
12 Looking for and hasting vnto the comming
of the day of God, wherein the heauens being on fire
shalbe dissolued, and the Elements shall melt with
feruent heat.
13 Neuerthelesse wee, according to his promise,
looke for new heauens, and a new earth, wherein
dwelleth righteousnesse.
14 Wherefore (beloued) seeing that ye looke
for such things, be diligent that ye may be found
of him in peace, without spot, and blamelesse.
15 And account that the long suffering of the Lord
is saluation, euen as our beloued brother Paul
also, according to the wisedome giuen vnto him,
hath written vnto you.

I know I'm a gentile. I never would have gotten
saved were it not for that 'gap' in the 70 weeks
of Daniel between the first 69 weeks and the
70th Week of Daniel.

Rom 11:25-26 (KJV1611 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should bee ignorant
of this mysterie (least yee should bee wise in your
owne conceits) that blindnesse in part is happened
to Israel,
vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saued,
as it is written, There shall come out
of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne
away vngodlinesse from Iacob

Yep, a gap 'until' (or 'while') gentiles are being saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 11:25-26 (KJV1611 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should bee ignorant
of this mysterie (least yee should bee wise in your
owne conceits) that blindnesse in part is happened
to Israel,
vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saued,
as it is written, There shall come out
of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne
away vngodlinesse from Iacob

Yep, a gap 'until' (or 'while') gentiles are being saved.

Rom 11 is a good example of a text having no timeline at all.


There is NO timeline given in Romans 11 -- not 70 years like the 70 years of Jeremiah Dan 9:1-4 and not 490 year timeline as we see in Dan 9 and not a 1260 year timeline as we see in Dan 7 and not a 2300 year timeline as we see in Dan 8.

When Christ said that he would rise on the 3rd day - He gave us a 3 day timeline - NO abuse of the text in the form of inserting gaps of undefined unknown time into the middle of ANY of these timelines (as in ACTUAL timelines) can be done and yet have the timeline survive.

Obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

// That 490 year timeline is a problem for the pre-trib view
because they need to insert an unspecified gap
of years before the last 7 years in the timeline. //

Ed
I find "what God hath wroght" to be
NO PROBLEM --

I can certainly agree that what God writes is not a problem -- but what man does to that text in inserting gaps of undefined time in the middle of a 490 year timeline - well that is a problem in what "man has writ"


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

//Rom 11 is a good example of
a text having no timeline at all.//

That is correct. That is correct but insignificant.
What is the timeline for Romans 11?
Answer: Daniel 9:26-27.

I've talked personally to three Messanic Jews
(Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah).
They all agree: when the last gentile is saved,
then the Lord will collect the church age,
mostly gentile but including the Messanic
Jewish/Israeli, saved, redeemed, ransomed,
elect church saints (AKA: Christians).
This gathering will happen prior to the
Tribulation Period wherein all Israel shall
be saved (Romans 11:26).

Recall most theologians of the 19th Century
(1801-1900) were anti-semetic

 

[Ed Edwards]

Part 1 of 2 (paras 1-8)

The mystery of the gap between the 69th week of Daniel
and the 70th week of Daniel is one of the things not known
fully in the Old Testament but is revealed in the New Testament.

But sum the Mysteries of the New Testament point out
the facts I've been presenting about the Pretribulation
Rapture of the Chuch Age (AKA: 'time of the gentiles'
elect Saints.

--------------------------------

The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.
(for the definition of 'Mystery' here
see Mystery #5 and the scripture at Eph 3:5)

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

Ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery". A mystery is what God knew
and is being revealed, but was not known to men
before.

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church
out of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation Period
to bring Yisrael back to Him.

BTW, Ephesians 3:2 the word "administration"
in the NIV is rendered "dispensation"
in the KJV1769.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to go through the Tribulation period
as some nay-sayers promote?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Part 2 of 2 (paras 9-13)

9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonians that is clearly specified there:

1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'
(1 Cor 16:22)

10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is complete,
the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:

This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.

-------------------------------


Put that in your timeline and smoke it

Please note this ;history lesson came from
scriptures written about 40-96AD.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: // That 490 year timeline is a problem for the pre-trib view
because they need to insert an unspecified gap
of years before the last 7 years in the timeline. //

Ed
//I find "what God hath wrought" to be
NO PROBLEM -- ... //


//I can certainly agree that what God writes is not a problem -- but what man does to that text in inserting gaps of undefined time in the middle of a 490 year timeline - well that is a problem in what "man has writ"//

Uh, about 'wroght', that should be "wrought" and
has nothing to do with 'writ, writing, etc".

The quote "what God hath wrought" was what
was the first message passed by the telephone
invented by Alexander Graham Bell.

'Wrought' is an archaic verb form of 'work', 'worked', etc.

And God planned the gap from before the foundation of
the cosmos -- but that is another post.
I'm just the messenger.

 

[BobRyan]

The mystery of the gap between the 69th week of Daniel
and the 70th week of Daniel is one of the things not known
fully in the Old Testament but is revealed in the New Testament.

But sum the Mysteries of the New Testament point out
the facts I've been presenting about the Pretribulation
Rapture of the Chuch Age (AKA: 'time of the gentiles'
elect Saints.

1. There is no gap in any Bible timeline ever given in all of scripture. Let's look at some examples of actual timelines.

Hint: Rom 11 is a good example of a text having no timeline at all.


Hint Actual Timelines:

70 years like the 70 years of Jeremiah also found in Dan 9:1-4

490 year timeline as we see in Dan 9

1260 year timeline as we see in Dan 7

2300 year timeline as we see in Dan 8.

When Christ said that he would rise on the 3rd day - He gave us a 3 day timeline - NO abuse of the text in the form of inserting gaps of undefined unknown time into the middle of ANY of these timelines (as in ACTUAL timelines) can be done and yet have the timeline survive.

These are examples of "time lines" like rulers in time they can be used to measure from start point to end point and the distance is the quantity stated IN the timeline between start and finish.

Obviously if you corrupt the timelines by breaking them into pieces and inserting gaps of unknow time into the 3 days mentioned by Christ or the 70 years of Jeremiah or the 1260 years of Dan 7 or the 490 years of Dan 9 -- completely destroys the timeline use as a ruler in time!

Ed

--------------------------------

The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.
(for the definition of 'Mystery' here
see Mystery #5 and the scripture at Eph 3:5)

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age.

Though the church age is a fact of history -- it is not a valid way to slice up timelines nor does it form an excuse for inserting massive 1000 years gaps of undefined time into them.

We are blessed by the fact that neither Matt 13 nor Mark 4 give us any excuse for doing such a thing to any specific timeline in Bible prophecy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Posted link to John Gill's work Author of the first Baptist commentary (showing how he agrees that the 490 year timeline is not to be sliced up into disconnected segments with undefined baps of time) is not complete on this page I give the complete link here --
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=009&verse=025

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards
"'rapture' is the Latin word for 'caught up' in English, see 1 Thess 4:17. ...."

GE
'harpagehsometha' < 'harpadzoh' "Take by force", "seize" > 'harpageh' act of plundering, spoil,; 'harpaks' ravenous.
Latin 'rapture' is wrong. Like in a cloud, 'Being storm-driven' (2Pt2:17), the righteous like the corn from between the weeds are 'plucked' - violently as pictured in Rv19:11-21 - "robbed" and wrung from the hand of the devil and the hold of the grave. In my humble opinion the clouds of 1Thess4:17 are going to be clouds of dust!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Now without the word 'rapture' all these garbled ideas of a rapture or many raptures are finished off with at once.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed Edwards
"'rapture' is the Latin word for 'caught up' in English, see 1 Thess 4:17. ...."

GE
'harpagehsometha' < 'harpadzoh' "Take by force", "seize" > 'harpageh' act of plundering, spoil,; 'harpaks' ravenous.
Latin 'rapture' is wrong. Like in a cloud, 'Being storm-driven' (2Pt2:17), the righteous like the corn from between the weeds are 'plucked' - violently as pictured in Rv19:11-21 - "robbed" and wrung from the hand of the devil and the hold of the grave. In my humble opinion the clouds of 1Thess4:17 are going to be clouds of dust!

I guess I got lost //'Being storm-driven' (2Pt2:17)//
is a translation of this Greek term according to Strong's:

lailaps
lah'ee-laps
Of uncertain derivation; a whirlwind (squall): - storm, tempest.


As you say "shall be caught up" is a translation of
the Greek (according to Strongs):

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various
applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

//Now without the word 'rapture' all these
garbled ideas of a rapture or many raptures
are finished off with at once.//

Sorry, my HOPE is NOT even closely threatened
by your grabbing one word 'rapture'.

 

[Ed Edwards]

1Th 4:16-18 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For the Lord himselfe shall descende from heauen with
a shoute, and with the voyce of the Archangel, and
with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then shall we which liue and remaine, be caught vp
with them also in the clouds, to meete the Lord
in the ayre: and so shall we euer be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort your selues one another
with these wordes.

Where is my comfort that you are
supposed to get me which is COMMANDed
to you in 1 Thess 4:18?

What then is the Bible talking about
hen it says these things (items of
interest bolded & in all caps)?

1 Thess 4:17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Then shall we which liue and remaine,
be CAUGHT VP with them also in the clouds,
to meete the Lord in the ayre:
and so shall we euer be with the Lord.

2 Thess 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ, and
by OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from
your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit,
nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs,
as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come, except there
come a DEPARTING FIRST, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne
of perdition,

Titus 2:13 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Looking for that BLESSED HOPE,
and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God,
and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

Mat 24:31 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And he shall send his Angels with
a great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT
from the foure windes, and from the one ende
of the heauens vnto the other.

1Co 16:22 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
If any man loue not the Lord Iesus Christ,
let him be had in execration MARAN-ATHA.

1 Corinthians 16:22 (TNIV = Today's New
International Version):
If anyone does not love the Lord,
let that person be cursed! COME LORD!

Joh 14:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let not your heart be troubled: ye beleeue in God,
beleeue also in me.
2 In my Fathers house are many dwelling places:
if it were not so, I would haue tolde you:
I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go to prepare a place
for you, I wil come againe,
and RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE,
that where I am, there may ye be also.

Ed redefines 'rapture2' with some Scripture
terms:

rapture2 n. -
1. the pretribulation event where Jesus
performs a resurrection1 followed
closely by a rapture1
2a CAUGHT VP;
2b OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
-- and DEPARTING;
2c BLESSED HOPE;
2d GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT;
2e MARAN-ATHA;
2f COME LORD!;
2g RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE;
2h and HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU

Caveat: I reserve the right to add to this definition
as I find other supporting scriptures containg
terms to descrive the rapture2. These
were just the ones on the top of my mind
tonight.

Sorry, my HOPE is NOT even closely threatened
by sombody grabbing my word 'rapture'.

And I have fulfilled the COMMAND OF JESUS:

1 Peter 3:15-16 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
But sanctifie the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready alwayes to giue an answere
to euery man that asketh you a reason of the
HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU,
with meekenesse and reuerence,

 

[BobRyan]

//Rom 11 is a good example of
a text having no timeline at all.//

That is correct. That is correct but insignificant.
What is the timeline for Romans 11?
Answer: Daniel 9:26-27.

You are stating what you hoped to find - what your view needs, you are not stating an fact about the text in question.

I have no problem with stating your position prior to actually showing that it has Bible support so that it is in fact true -- but that is the part that you need to address.

Simply stating what you hope to find - is not the end of the point.

To be specific -- we have NO examples of ANY timeilines in all of scripture that can survive the diciing, slicing chopping and vivisecting that PTR proposes for the 490 year timeline of Dan 9.

This rule includes --

The 70 year timeline in Jeremiah referred to in Dan 9.
It includes the 430 year timeline God set for Abraham's descenants in Egypt.
It includes the 1260 year timeline of Dan 7 - the dark ages.
It includes the 2300 year timeline of Dan 8.
It includes the 490 year (70 weeks of years) timeline of Dan 9.
It includes the 3 day timeline Christ gives for his crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection.

No slicing and dicing and inserting 1000's of years gaps into these timelines - because "by definition" all quantitave timelines are contiguous.

This could not be more obvious to the unbiased objective reader. Even you would accept it were you not trying to rescue PTR from this glaringly blatant fact. It is "instructivce" that John Gill - author of the first ever Baptist commentary also appears to accept this irrefutable fact.

in Christ,

Bob