history lesson

[Brother Bob]

Sometimes I think some are speaking of the wrath of God when they are talking about the tribulations. The Bible is plain that we will go through the tribulations because Jesus said no flesh would be saved, except those days are shortened, for the elects sake. That is why I am Post trib. I am AMill in the sense that I believe the thousand years is spiritual and began at the cross, with Jesus being the first resurrection. I read what John Wesley said about the end times and pretty well agree with him. I am not completely Amill though.

John Wesley does not have an eschatology, when one considers such a subject in the light of the results of systematic theology. Actually, the word "eschatology" is of nineteenth century origin. However, Wesley does emphasize those subjects usually connected with a serious consideration of eschatology, i.e. death, the intermediate state of the soul, the resurrection, the second coming of Christ, the judgment, the end of the world, heaven, and hell.


BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

Sometimes I think some are speaking of the wrath of God
when they are talking about the tribulations.
The Bible is plain that we will go through
the tribulations because Jesus said no flesh
would be saved, except those days are shortened,
for the elects sake.

I equate the 'wrath of God' with
the 'Tribulation Period'. The Tribulation Period
is a period of time between the Church Age
and the Messanic Kingdom Age.

This is different from 'tribulation' which is suffering.
We can suffer the 'tribulation' of man but not the
'Tribulation Period' /Wrath/ of God.

[(Note that the earthly 'wrath of God' is NOT the
same as the 'eternal wrath of God' - but in either case,
the 'Tribulation Period' is a Judgement (actually two)
of God on Messiah Rejecting Gentiles.)]

"The Bible is plain that we will go through
the tribulations because Jesus said no flesh
would be saved, except those days are shortened,
for the elects sake."

This is correct, however Tribulation Period
is NOT equal to 'tribulations'. The Tribulation Period
is the wrath of God. Tribulations are the wrath of man
/usually governments that are supposed to help humans
find their full development but don't./

John 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace,
in the world ye shall haue tribulation:
but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.

Jesus said 'you shall have tribulation' NOT
'you shall be in the Tribulation Period'.

Mat 24:21-22 (KJV1611 Edition):
For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
there should no flesh be saued:
but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.

IMHO the 'elect' are in heaven. They talk FACE TO FACE
with Jesus appealing that the suffering of their friends on
earth be shorted so they might have a SECOND CHANCE.

The Church Age Saints came OUT OF the Great Tribulation
(Period) by being raptured1/resurrected1 before the
Tribulation PERIOD (not before the heartache & pain type
tribulation).

 

[Brother Bob]

I think because you and others do not make it plain you mean the "wrath of God", it confuses some, such as me.... I finally figured it out myself, what you were talking about.

I said I was post trib, thinking you mean the tribulations and not the "wrath of God". If you are talking about the "wrath of God" as Post Trib or Pre Trib, I don't know how anyone would be Post Trib under those circumstances. So, as you see for me it brings confusion, if you are not talking about tribulations, that all the living will go through, such as wars, famines etc.

Lets just say I believe the believers will be gone from here, when God pours out His wrath upon this earth.

BBob,

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I think because you and others do not make it plain you mean the "wrath of God", it confuses some, such as me.... I finally figured it out myself, what you were talking about.

I said I was post trib, thinking you mean the tribulations and not the "wrath of God". If you are talking about the "wrath of God" as Post Trib or Pre Trib, I don't know how anyone would be Post Trib under those circumstances. So, as you see for me it brings confusion, if you are not talking about tribulations, that all the living will go through, such as wars, famines etc.

Lets just say I believe the believers will be gone from here, when God pours out His wrath upon this earth.

BBob,

GE
Lets just say I believe the believers will be safely with the Lamb in the New Jerusalem (from heaven) upon this earth a sea of molton elements, wicked and devils pot pouri wrath of God "poured out". Not, 'gone from here', but to "see" as the Bible says, the judgment of the wicked. I take this will be the hell, and that God out of this hell, like He raised up Christ from the dead, will make the New Earth and the new Heavens. Just telling. Because I fell in love with the idea and the Promise of Jesus and us with Him always where He is.

 

[jilphn1022]

To Post (pardon the expression) 42:

The Church Age Saints came OUT OF the Great Tribulation
(Period) by being raptured1/resurrected1 before the
Tribulation PERIOD (not before the heartache & pain type
tribulation).

Yes, Ed, every time my husband comes OUT OF the grocery store, I know that he had to be "raptured" away from it first in order to be able to come OUT OF it!

Second point: other pretribs say that if we come back with Christ at the second coming to earth, we must have had a pretrib rapture in order to be able to come back with Him. Of course everyone knows that if someone is coming to visit you, you have to be at the airport several years before his plane arrives so that you can come right back to your home with him; you can't possibly go straight to the airport, meet him, and turn right around and escort him back to your home.

Third point: if you visit a friend in a distant city and then return for a second visit years later, do you tell your friend that it is the "second stage" of your single visit? Why do pretribs persist in having illogical and unnatural language so often? Do you suppose they've been influenced by certain teachers? I'm sure you know.

 

[BobRyan]

Sometimes I think some are speaking of the wrath of God when they are talking about the tribulations. The Bible is plain that we will go through the tribulations because Jesus said no flesh would be saved, except those days are shortened, for the elects sake. That is why I am Post trib.

Right on the money- take the Bible for what it says and go with it!:jesus:

I am AMill in the sense that I believe the thousand years is spiritual and began at the cross, with Jesus being the first resurrection.

Stop the bus - this is where I get off!!:tonofbricks:

:laugh:

Ok I have a challenge for you - toss out Amill for just a second. Take the text as it reads -- no "goals" in mind for what you want it to say. Then show how the text that actually mentions the 1000 years between first and 2nd resurrections is NOT future to john is NOT a real 1000 years and is NOT real but spiritual.

In other words - can you walk us through the text itself and show that IT is insisting the 1000 years are not real, not literal, not future to John's day, not after the Rev 19 2nd coming of Christ etc etc.

That's the challenge - go to Rev 20 -- start with a clean white sheet - no agenda and simply show IN the text that it is arguing for these points.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Church Age Saints came OUT OF the Great Tribulation
(Period) by being raptured1/resurrected1 before the
Tribulation PERIOD (not before the heartache & pain type
tribulation).

Yes, Ed, every time my husband comes OUT OF the grocery store, I know that he had to be "raptured" away from it first in order to be able to come OUT OF it!

Good point. And as Matt 24 says
"AFTER the tribulation of those days... he will gather his elect".

Second point: other pretribs say that if we come back with Christ at the second coming to earth, we must have had a pretrib rapture in order to be able to come back with Him. Of course everyone knows that if someone is coming to visit you, you have to be at the airport several years before his plane arrives so that you can come right back to your home with him; you can't possibly go straight to the airport, meet him, and turn right around and escort him back to your home.

Bingo!

However you are missing something. The text does not say "If I go away - you will meet me and take me to your house".

So using your illustration above.

If someone says "I go to Hiwaii on this plane to prepare a place for you - and if I GO I will come back and take you with me to that place I prepared" -- they are not talking about preparing a home for you in Hiwaii but then simply returning to your home instead.

Third point: if you visit a friend in a distant city and then return for a second visit years later, do you tell your friend that it is the "second stage" of your single visit?

Indeed the pretrib group spins the "First Resurrection" statement of Rev 20 into "Second First Resurrection"
or as Ed says "First resurrection is really resurrection2" for pre-tribbers

Why do pretribs persist in having illogical and unnatural language so often?

They need it to get out of the natural reading of the text -- without a strained "second first resurrection that is resurrection2" the pre-trib view simply does not work in Rev 20.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I think because you and others do not make it plain you mean the "wrath of God", it confuses some, such as me.... I finally figured it out myself, what you were talking about.

I said I was post trib, thinking you mean the tribulations and not the "wrath of God". If you are talking about the "wrath of God" as Post Trib or Pre Trib, I don't know how anyone would be Post Trib under those circumstances. So, as you see for me it brings confusion, if you are not talking about tribulations, that all the living will go through, such as wars, famines etc.

Lets just say I believe the believers will be gone from here, when God pours out His wrath upon this earth.

BBob,

IF we are talking about the wrath of God seen in Rev 19 at the 2nd coming -- then right on!

If we are talking about God gathering his saints then wiping out the wicked as we see in Rev 14 -- then you hit the nail on the head!

But if we are talking about the saints leaving BEFORE the 7 last plagues of Rev 16 and before the first resurrection of Rev 20 and before the 2nd coming event of Rev 19 -- then I would not agree. Rather they go through the 7 last plagues (as did Israel when the plagues fell on others but not God's people) and they go through to the 2nd coming - Rev 19 where they then see the "First Resurrection" Rev 20 and are rapture up WITH the dead in Christ as we see in 1Thess 4.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan

"show how the text that actually mentions the 1000 years between first and 2nd resurrections is NOT future to john is NOT a real 1000 years and is NOT real but spiritual."

GE

False. Thousand times now and you still sit on your false idea! You, show us, How the text actually mentions 1000 years between 'the first and 2nd resurrections'! Every word of yours, is false! 'The text' does not 'actually mention' "between". 'The text' does not 'actually mention' "resurrectionS"! 'The text' does not 'actually mention' a "2nd resurrection". Three lies in one statement! And I have not finished yet!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

For anybody here - For the demolishing of this SDA-monstrosity, click on 'Book 6', 'new' - for an appendix to Book Six, Divine Priest, http://www.biblestudents.co.za (The book itself DV will be on line in a few days.)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Bob: //I think because you and others do not make it plain you mean the "wrath of God", it confuses some, such as me.... //

Uh, I left clues:
Here is entry #5 from my writing: "Five Tribulations":

// 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus //

Seems like that was put around several places on BB.
Here are three copies since Google started keeping track of
BB posts. Note one topic was me arguing against
the proposition that //There's only 'One Day' of
God's Wrath!//



There's only "One Day" of God's Wrath! [Archive] - BaptistBoard.com

[SIZE=-1]What the wrath of God for? Send person into everlasting punishment for not .... WHAT: the wrath of God WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half) ...
www.baptistboard.com/archive/index.php/t-1785.html - 22k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE] There's only "One Day" of God's Wrath! - BaptistBoard.com

[SIZE=-1]What the wrath of God for? Send person into everlasting punishment for not .... WHAT: the wrath of God WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half) ...
www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=1785 - 74k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
When will the Rapture happen in relation to the Tribulation ...

[SIZE=-1]WHAT: the wrath of God WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half) WHERE: worldwide WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus ...
www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=38518&page=3 - 104k -Cached - Similar pages

Even our Kindly Brother DeafPostrib says (first reference):

//[/SIZE]Pretribulationism teaches, the wrath of God is seven year of tribulation period. //


[SIZE=-1]


[/SIZE]

 

[BobRyan]

1. When you use "day of God's Wrath" to apply to the 490 year timeline prophecy of Daniel 9 (the 70 weeks of years) you are stretching this far beyond what scripture will allow.

2. The "great tribulation" of Matt 24 is never called "the day of God's wrath" no not in all of scripture.

3. We see the wrath of God poured out - in Rev 16 and that is a place we can use such a term with an actual event description. But it has nothing to do with the wicked persectuting the saints as we see in Daniel 7 and 9 and in Matt 24's "great tribulation".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
"show how the text that actually mentions the 1000 years between first and 2nd resurrections is NOT future to john is NOT a real 1000 years and is NOT real but spiritual."

False. Thousand times now and you still sit on your false idea! You, show us, ...

Your argument here fails to begin to step up to the plate of the challenge I gave here GE.

The point remains - you ad hominem and empty accusations not withstanding.

Feel free to "begin" to address the point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

'Wrath of God' = tribulation on bad guys

- do you agree or not?

//1. When you use "day of God's Wrath" to apply to the 490 year timeline prophecy of Daniel 9 (the 70 weeks of years) you are stretching this far beyond what scripture will allow.//

I thought I said one of the 'day of God's Wrath' was the
70th Week of Daniel. I did (checked it).
70th Week of Daniel = Tribulation Period = Wrath of Christ
= Wrath of God (but not all of them)

1 Th 5:9-10 (Geneva Bible 1599 Edition):
For God hath not appointed vs vnto wrath,
but to obtaine saluation by the meanes of our Lord Iesus Christ,
1 Th 5:10 Which died for vs, that whether
we wake or sleepe, we should liue together with him.

Alright, then there are three types of SALVATION
I want to talk about:

1. Saved from the first Half of the Tribulation Period
2. Saved from the second Half, the Great Tribulation
Period
3. Saved from eternal damnation that you deserve

Make it 3 with two parts of each:
1b. Saved to attend a reward ceremony in heaven
2b. Saved to attend the wedding Supper of the Lamb
--- (as part of the Bride of Christ)
3b. Saved to eternal "MIND CANNOT CONCEIVE
--- OF WHAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR US"- type heaven

Never have figured out a two-part FIRST RESURRECTION?
Can a Holy Trinity have three Salvations
each with two-parts?

 

[Ed Edwards]

//3. We see the wrath of God poured out - in Rev 16 and
that is a place we can use such a term with an actual event
description. But it has nothing to do with the wicked
persectuting the saints as we see in Daniel 7 and 9 and
in Matt 24's "great tribulation".//

You don't seem to understand that
the Great Tribulation is something God puts on
bad guys. The Great Tribulation Period has
the same attributes as THE WRATH OF GOD.

1. a period of time
2. the undiluated wraath of God poured out on bad guys
3. something that God doesn't put on those saved
by Jesus.

// 2. The "great tribulation" of Matt 24 is never
called "the day of God's wrath" no not in all of scripture.//

The Bible doesn't need to say that.
People who study the Bible for themselves
(instead of buying into some 19th century
explanation. From 1801-1900 people didn't
know that in 1964 the people of Earth would be
able to do all the destruction {but none of the
salvation}of Revelation. God will interceede
on behalf of those saved by Jesus to
save human beans from themselves.)

 

[BobRyan]

'Wrath of God' = tribulation on bad guys

- do you agree or not?

Well I am kinda leaving that up to the pre-trib and mid-trib guys because when I say "post trib" I mean REv 19 and that is after all forms except for the final wrath of God that is poured out in Rev 19 - resulting in the feast of the birds on all remaining mankind.

However the only place we see the Bible ITSELF mentione "great tribulation" and the "those dayS of tribulation" is in Matt 24 -- correct?

"But AFTER the tribulation ... he will gather His elect" Matt 24.

Bob said

//1. When you use "day of God's Wrath" to apply to the 490 year timeline prophecy of Daniel 9 (the 70 weeks of years) you are stretching this far beyond what scripture will allow.//

Ed

I thought I said one of the 'day of God's Wrath' was the
70th Week of Daniel. I did (checked it).

Ok -- just show where the Bible calls the 70th week "a day of God's wrath" -- or one of the days of it.

Ed
Alright, then there are three types of SALVATION
I want to talk about:

1. Saved from the first Half of the Tribulation Period
2. Saved from the second Half, the Great Tribulation
Period

Sounds good. Start showing where the Bible actually says it -- I am all strapped in and ready for the ride!:thumbs:

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

//3. We see the wrath of God poured out - in Rev 16 and
that is a place we can use such a term with an actual event
description. But it has nothing to do with the wicked
persectuting the saints as we see in Daniel 7 and 9 and
in Matt 24's "great tribulation".//

Ed
You don't seem to understand that
the Great Tribulation is something God puts on
bad guys. The Great Tribulation Period has
the same attributes as THE WRATH OF GOD.

True enough -- I don't.

In Matt 24 the context is the wicked persecuting the saints.

Just as we see in Dan 7 and Dan 9.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Your argument here fails to begin to step up to the plate of the challenge I gave here GE.

The point remains - you ad hominem and empty accusations not withstanding.

Feel free to "begin" to address the point.

in Christ,

Bob

GE

I showed how each of the word-claims you make is false-'text' claims. You come with this verbose retort - I did nor expect better, so am not surprised at all. You are a falsi - a fraudster, a from the Bible-liar!

 

[BobRyan]

What part of "ad hominem is not a funny kinda proof of something" is not getting through here GE?

I am waiting for you to make an actual point. When you jump into a dialoge between me and someone else - you have to make a point -- see? That is how it works. Simply jumping in with a load of ad hominem nonsense is pointless.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here is an explanation of the five TRIBULATIONS
that I want to talk about in the next post.
This post is a description of the five TRIBULATIONS
that I want to talk about.
In the next post I will deal with all 'tribulations'
mentioned in the Bible & tell which of the
five it is.

------------------------------
Joh 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace, in the world
ye shall haue tribulation: but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.

Here is my essay from the early 1990s about
Tribulation:

---------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, affliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointments,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity, torture
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompense in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
---------------------------------