Skandelon:
Exactly my point. Paul speaks of their condition before and after. Both times using the word "dead" to describe that condition. Before Christ you assume dead, because it happens to be followed by little word "in", must mean total inability. And after Christ the word "dead" , because it is followed by the little word "to", must mean ???? something else. You only have an opinion to provide as any kind of support for this interpretation and it is the crux of the entire doctrine of Total Depravity. Talk about a week foundation on which to build an entire doctrine.
You say this is my doctrine ? Okay, here is Gill's commentary. Gill is Electionist.
who were dead in trespasses and sins;
not only dead in Adam, in whom they sinned, being their federal head and representative; and in a legal sense, the sentence of condemnation and death having passed upon them; but in a moral sense, through original sin, and their own actual transgressions: which death lies in a separation from God, Father, Son, and Spirit, such are without God, and are alienated from the life of God, and they are without Christ, who is the author and giver of life, and they are sensual, not having the Spirit, who is the spirit of life; and in a deformation of the image of God, such are dead as to their understandings, wills, and affections, with respect to spiritual things, and as to their capacity to do any thing that is spiritually good; and in a loss of original righteousness; and in a privation of the sense of sin and misery; and in a servitude to sin, Satan, and the world: hence it appears, that man must be in himself unacceptable to God, infectious and hurtful to his fellow creatures, and incapable of helping himself: so it was usual with the Jews to call a wicked and ignorant man, a dead man;
Now, here is Wesley's, who is Arminian:
And he hath quickened you - In the nineteenth and twentieth verses of the preceding chapter, St. Paul spoke of God's working in them by the same almighty power whereby he raised Christ from the dead. On the mention of this he, in the fulness of his heart, runs into a flow of thought concerning the glory of Christ's exaltation in the three following verses. He here resumes the thread of his discourse. Who were dead - Not only diseased, but dead; absolutely void of all spiritual life; and as incapable of quickening yourselves, as persons literally dead. In trespasses and sins - Sins seem to be spoken chiefly of the gentiles, who knew not God; trespasses, of the Jews, who had his law, and yet regarded it not, Ephesians 2:5. The latter herein obeyed the flesh; the former, the princeof the power of the air
Dead
to sin. By Gill, the Calvinist:
how shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
There is a death for sin, a death in sin, and a death to sin; the latter is here mentioned, and persons may be said to be "dead to sin", both as justified and sanctified: justified persons are dead to sin, inasmuch as that is not imputed to them to condemnation and death; they are discharged from it; it cannot hurt them, or exert its damning power over them; it is crucified, abolished, and made an end of by Christ: sanctified persons are dead to sin; sin is not made their business, it is not their course of life; it is no longer a pleasure to them, but is loathsome and abominable; it is looked upon, not as a friend, but an enemy; it does not reign, it has not the dominion over them; it is subdued in them, and its power weakened; and as to the members of the flesh, and deeds of the body, it is mortified: to live in sin, is to live after the dictates of corrupt nature; and persons may be said to live in it, when they give up themselves to it, are bent upon it; when sin is their life, they delight in it, make it their work and business, and the whole course of their life is sinful: now those who are dead to sin, cannot thus live in it, though sin may live in them; they may fall into sin, and lie in it some time, yet they cannot live in it:
Dead
to sin, by Wesley, the Arminian:
6:2 Dead to sin - Freed both from the guilt and from the power of it.
You can look these up at Crosswalk.com if you care to.
Next item. About the letter to the Corinthians.
We were talking about the
natural man, the man dead
in sin and trespasses being unable to understand "things of the Spirit". I gave that Scripture to show to you waht the Holy Spirit says about
your argument that men so alive to sin welcome and understand the gospel message. They do not.
Are these Corinthians still dead
in sin and trespasses and therefore unsaved ? No, they are not. Are they still spiritual babies ? Yes, they are. Consider their treatment of the Lord's supper in 1 Corinthians, consider the man living in sexual abomination. Did Paul consider them unbelievers ? No, he did not. Was Paul telling them about how unbelievers are ? Yes, he was. So, stop twisting this discussion just to picture me heretical or stupid, and stick to the topic. We are talking about
unregenerates and not regenerates.
You said:
Christ had faith? I know Christ is the author of our faith. But did Christ require faith to believe in himself? I don't think that is biblically based. I could be wrong. If so please show me. It just doesn't make much sense.
Okay. But again I am reminded of Father Abraham's words to the rich man. You know, in the Bible, Matthew says something about the graves being opened and the saints roaming in the city, which means the Jews saw them, but did Jerusalem convert ? I can post as many scriptures here, but if you choose to remain blind to it, those scriptures will mean nothing. And I say "choose" not to mean that man indeed has free will, but, because I consider you one of God's own, yet one who 'chooses' to ignore what his God clearly wrote down, just like Paul refused to heed the Holy Spirit's warning through Agabus, the prophet.
Romans 3:3
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Romans 3:21-23
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Galatians 2:16, 20
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ga 2:20 -
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
You said:
But did Christ require faith to believe in himself?
In Himself, no. In His Father, yes. Biblical base ? Read Philippians and Hebrews.
You said:
Yes! And the Holy Spirit opens the losts eyes through what means????
THE GOSPEL! He indwells the hearts of believers as a comfortor, encourager and guide and compels us to preach the gospel. The powerful message of God's word convicts people of sin and opens the eyes.
Okay. here I will agree with you, this statement does not say that the Gospel is the means of regeneration (which we PB's do not believe). What you said is in line with the gospel bringing life and immortality to light. The elect are lost until God regenerates them in order for the Gospel to convict them and instruct them. But the Gospel will only have that effect on God's people, not all people.
You said:
What? The gospel is for regenerated children of God only? This is so far out there I don't want to waist my time addressing anymore. I've known a lot of Calvinistic believers in my day and even a few PBs and I've not heard any take things as far off as you do.
Your problem is that you consider the Gospel a means of regeneration. I say, and my brethren will agree with me, it is not a
means of regeneration. God regenerates His people without any need of means. The Gospel is the
whole counsel of God to His people and not to the whole human race, from the good news of their
finished salvation, to their instruction in doctrine, to reproof, to the practice of rightousness and holy living as pilgrims on this earth.
You may want to consult with some of your teachers..
You know, I never had any formal study on the Doctrines of Grace. I graduated from a Philippine Bible Baptist seminary run by a Bible Baptist church which was thoroughly Arminian and whose President and Dean and instructors practically frothed in the mouth at the mention of Calvinism, John Piper, John Mc'Arthur, James M. Boice, and the modern day Calvinists and Reformed Theologians, and that made me wonder.
Now. I know that Spurgeon and John Bunyan and John Newton were Calvinistic, and the same seminary president and seminary dean and seminary instructors loved to quote from these men and use these men's outlines in most of their sermons, and that made me wonder some more, but I kept quiet because I was a student in
their seminary.
A year into seminary I was sent out by the church as preacher and started a small church in one of the depressed areas. Of course, the doctrines I taught and my preaching was Arminian and I had the usual altar calls. For a year. After that I stopped altar calls, and simply told visitors to study their Bibles if they had one. Still, without altar calls, that mission became an organized church with 65 members who called me to Pastor them, I baptized people into the church at the rate of three a month, which was good for the Philippines considering the Philippines was a 'devoutly' Roman Catholic country. And
that made me wonder some more.
When I got to the States, God, in His providence, directed me to a Calvinistic Baptist church whose pastor patiently expounded the Doctrines of Grace to me. And with more providence, God led me to the Primitive Baptists who
do not have organized Bible studies.
Therefore, I have no teachers to run to, except God.
What I do, is search the Scriptures to see if what they (Calvin, Gill, etc., Hassel, Pyles, etc) say is true, comparing scripture with scripture, a line here, a line there, a precept here, a precept there, and I found that the PB's were right in most cases.
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