-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is Headcoverings Important?
- Thread starter SaggyWoman
- Start date
--------------------------------------------------
One can hate sin without withholding love from the one who sins. Jesus certainly hates sin, but freely dined with the sinners. Good thing, too, since we who are Christians are still sinners, yet Jesus chooses to dine with us.
--------------------------------------------------
Because Jesus is the Son of God, and HAS NO SIN. He cannot be TEMPTED to sin, nor fall to temptation of sin. WE however can and do. WE can give an unsaved person the impression that we are CONDONING that sin, by COMPROMISING rather than SEPARATING FROM. Here is what the scriptures say to do:
Romans 16
17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
19. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
2 Tim. 2
19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Titus 3
1. Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
2. To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful,and hating one another.
4. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7. That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Phillipians 3
13. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14. I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19. Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20. For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21. Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Jude 1
3. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18. How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the spirit.
20. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22. And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23. And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25. To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
One can hate sin without withholding love from the one who sins. Jesus certainly hates sin, but freely dined with the sinners. Good thing, too, since we who are Christians are still sinners, yet Jesus chooses to dine with us.
--------------------------------------------------
Because Jesus is the Son of God, and HAS NO SIN. He cannot be TEMPTED to sin, nor fall to temptation of sin. WE however can and do. WE can give an unsaved person the impression that we are CONDONING that sin, by COMPROMISING rather than SEPARATING FROM. Here is what the scriptures say to do:
Romans 16
17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
19. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
2 Tim. 2
19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Titus 3
1. Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
2. To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful,and hating one another.
4. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7. That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Phillipians 3
13. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14. I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19. Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20. For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21. Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Jude 1
3. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18. How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the spirit.
20. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22. And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23. And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25. To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Huh? Jesus WAS tempted to sin, by Satan himself. He didn't give into temptation. That's the difference. Being tempted is not a sin. giving into temptation is a sin. However, that's a non-issue to the topic at hand:
1 - Being in the company of sinners is not akin to giving into temptation. Good thing, too, since I'm in the company of sinners every Sunday morning, at church. And I am the chief of sinners, imo. What does scripture say? Jesus gives us the parable of the Good Samaritan to inscruct us that we should not let our own piety prevent us from giving aide to those whom we are called to serve. We are called to serve the lost, as well as the found.
2 - None of this has anything to do with the issue of headcovering. We're not required to wear, or refrain from wearing, headcoverings. The wearing of headcoverings, or refraining from the wearing of headcoverings, is not a sin. Some will agree and some will disagree, which I will respect. However, whether we wear headcoverings or not, if we fail to comprehend the purpose behind the headcovering issue, we fail to comprehend scripture, and open ourseives to sin.
--------------------------------------------------
Because Jesus is the Son of God, and HAS NO SIN. He cannot be TEMPTED to sin, nor fall to temptation of sin. WE however can and do. WE can give an unsaved person the impression that we are CONDONING that sin, by COMPROMISING rather than SEPARATING FROM. Here is what the scriptures say to do:
michelle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
--------------------------------------------------
Yes, I realize this but thank you for pointing this out. I was rather referring to Christ now in Heaven and in us due to this statement:
--------------------------------------------------
"yet Jesus chooses to dine with us".
--------------------------------------------------
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Because Jesus is the Son of God, and HAS NO SIN. He cannot be TEMPTED to sin, nor fall to temptation of sin. WE however can and do. WE can give an unsaved person the impression that we are CONDONING that sin, by COMPROMISING rather than SEPARATING FROM. Here is what the scriptures say to do:
michelle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
--------------------------------------------------
Yes, I realize this but thank you for pointing this out. I was rather referring to Christ now in Heaven and in us due to this statement:
--------------------------------------------------
"yet Jesus chooses to dine with us".
--------------------------------------------------
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
--------------------------------------------------
1 - Being in the company of sinners is not akin to giving into temptation. Good thing, too, since I'm in the company of sinners every Sunday morning, at church. And I am the chief of sinners, imo. What does scripture say? Jesus gives us the parable of the Good Samaritan to inscruct us that we should not let our own piety prevent us from giving aide to those whom we are called to serve. We are called to serve the lost, as well as the found.
--------------------------------------------------
It might do you well, to READ what I was talking about. AV has twisted what was being discussed, yet again, to bring this into something that was NEVER implied, nor said by me, to which you are feeding off from.
What does the Lord say in the scriptures about separation? Are you denying this command? I gave abundant scripture referrences.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
1 - Being in the company of sinners is not akin to giving into temptation. Good thing, too, since I'm in the company of sinners every Sunday morning, at church. And I am the chief of sinners, imo. What does scripture say? Jesus gives us the parable of the Good Samaritan to inscruct us that we should not let our own piety prevent us from giving aide to those whom we are called to serve. We are called to serve the lost, as well as the found.
--------------------------------------------------
It might do you well, to READ what I was talking about. AV has twisted what was being discussed, yet again, to bring this into something that was NEVER implied, nor said by me, to which you are feeding off from.
What does the Lord say in the scriptures about separation? Are you denying this command? I gave abundant scripture referrences.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
I'm not denying what scripture says abotu separation, but the separation issue can be abused. It is because of the separation issue that we have a gazillion denominations, and even multpile baptist denominations.
But, scriptural separation does not equate to alienation. Jesus commands us to love one another as He loves us. Dining with the sinners was an act of love. While we should be cognisant to be separate, we should not eschew our other duties as Christians in the course of separating ourselves. Now, I know that's not what you're saying, but some could take it that way.
Again, the separation issue has nothing to do with the headcovering issue.
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Michelle, the servant is not better than his master. Jesus said to go into the world, the highways and hedges, etc. To exclude yourself from doing so, or from being friends with people who aren't saved is ludicrous. You would then have no way to reach them, unless of course you believe in a lifestyle evangelism. You must be pretty weak in the faith if you cannot be around "sinners", or if you have to remove yourself from people after telling them what you think the Bible says. (Your statement saying that if you told me something and I didn't accept it you would have to separate from me...an implication of separating after expounding your infinite wisdom on God's Word, putting yourself in the position of basically saying because one doesn't immediately accept your version of the Word of God instead of staying friends and being a constant witness). I can see why many stay away from the KJVO/IFB HYPER sect of Christianity. It's unscriptural, though they will twist the scriptures to fit their doctrine instead of making their doctrines fit the scriptures. It's a shame.
Actually AVL, it is rather, that two cannot walk together unless they be agreed (Amos 3:3). I cannot have company, or do things as friends with those who are in rejection of God, because it is not possible - both ways. I have to deal with this with my own family, who are not yet saved, and there are always many problems. They are my family and I love them, and they love me, but I love God more. When things arise that conflict with my FAITH, then this always becomes a problem. My family and I are not as close as we used to be, not so much because of my choice, but theirs. They do not like the conviction (?) they must feel when they are around me. They do not like my talking about the Lord and his truth.
But, in this issue, I was not speaking of these things, as you have turned it into. I was speaking about the churches, and those who are claiming to be christian specifically.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
But, in this issue, I was not speaking of these things, as you have turned it into. I was speaking about the churches, and those who are claiming to be christian specifically.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
I haven't turned it into anything, Michelle. You have by your own words. This is why I've made the statements I've made. When dealing with non-Christians we are not to cut them off as you suggest. Christians will not win people by cutting them off. They will win them by LIMITING their contact. Amos 3:3 doesn't imply a total cutting off of those who don't agree with you. It does however imply limited contact, not a continuous spend every hour of the day with the person who doesn't know the Lord. Context michelle. You're doing better, and your replys are improving. You are from some indications trying to cut down on the rhetoric, and this is good. At least this reply was somewhat better than the ad hominem attacks you made on my person a few posts back.
Let me add, if the Holy Spirit has convicted your heart that way about Amos 3:3, I would not ask you to avoid that conviction. The Lord doesn't convict all people on the same level.
Now, is it possible to get this thread back on track. I haven't really got any outside sources for headcoverings, historical or otherwise. I do have what has been the tradition of the church up until the early to mid 1900's in many churches. Women did then, and in some cases, still do wear headcoverings. Many at the synagogue in Nashville do. Some do not. Many in the Catholic church here do, but some do not. And then hardly any in the Baptist church do at all. Pentecostals seem to be evenly split. Is it a societal thing, or is it Biblical? On that particular thing I haven't studied it enough to be sure.
Let me add, if the Holy Spirit has convicted your heart that way about Amos 3:3, I would not ask you to avoid that conviction. The Lord doesn't convict all people on the same level.
Now, is it possible to get this thread back on track. I haven't really got any outside sources for headcoverings, historical or otherwise. I do have what has been the tradition of the church up until the early to mid 1900's in many churches. Women did then, and in some cases, still do wear headcoverings. Many at the synagogue in Nashville do. Some do not. Many in the Catholic church here do, but some do not. And then hardly any in the Baptist church do at all. Pentecostals seem to be evenly split. Is it a societal thing, or is it Biblical? On that particular thing I haven't studied it enough to be sure.
--------------------------------------------------
I haven't turned it into anything, Michelle. You have by your own words.
--------------------------------------------------
You have, and your following comments make that very clear.
--------------------------------------------------
This is why I've made the statements I've made. When dealing with non-Christians we are not to cut them off as you suggest. Christians will not win people by cutting them off. They will win them by LIMITING their contact. Amos 3:3 doesn't imply a total cutting off of those who don't agree with you.
--------------------------------------------------
Again, I was initially speaking of the church and those who claim to be christian, to which you have turned it into something else. But now that you bring this up, just to let you know, the scriptures say the opposite of what you say.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
I haven't turned it into anything, Michelle. You have by your own words.
--------------------------------------------------
You have, and your following comments make that very clear.
--------------------------------------------------
This is why I've made the statements I've made. When dealing with non-Christians we are not to cut them off as you suggest. Christians will not win people by cutting them off. They will win them by LIMITING their contact. Amos 3:3 doesn't imply a total cutting off of those who don't agree with you.
--------------------------------------------------
Again, I was initially speaking of the church and those who claim to be christian, to which you have turned it into something else. But now that you bring this up, just to let you know, the scriptures say the opposite of what you say.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Not really, Michelle. I think you need to take a class in hermenuetics. It might greatly benefit you.
You constantly say the Bible says the opposite of what EVERYONE says except your KJVo cronies. That's truly a shame. In some of your posts you WEREN'T speaking of those who are just the church. Again, the spin from you goes on and on......As JohnV already stated, separation can and often is abused...especially by the HYPER KJVo/IFB set.
You constantly say the Bible says the opposite of what EVERYONE says except your KJVo cronies. That's truly a shame. In some of your posts you WEREN'T speaking of those who are just the church. Again, the spin from you goes on and on......As JohnV already stated, separation can and often is abused...especially by the HYPER KJVo/IFB set.
This is how YOU took it OFF TOPIC. Not me.
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
gb quoted:
Michelle:
Remember I am taliking about then and not now. I think you are trying to take what I say and apply it directly to today. It was the norm then, not now in our culture. It was only directly applicable then. We have different cultural norms in America than they did.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michelle quoted:
Since when are we to adjust biblical truth to the times and culture of the world? Does God change? Does God's will change? Is God's truth the same yesturday, today, and tomorrow? What makes todays society and culture, different in this respect? Does God expect the woman to keep her head covered in honour to her husband, ultimately in honour to her Lord, or not? Are you saying this does not apply today? So if I were to walk into your church with my head bald or shaven, and claimed I was born again of the Spirit, you would then believe me? You would not see the rebellion in me?
--------------------------------------------------
AVL1984 quoted:
Michelle, I for one would believe you. Why? Because man judges from the outward appearance and God judges the heart. To say, however that culture and times don't apply in the word of God is just plain ludicrous. Even God refers to the sun, moon and stars being for times and seasons. And Christ came "in the fullness of time". Cultures differed even then, as they do now. Biblical truth isn't adjusted because of this fact, but application of those truths is.
--------------------------------------------------
Michelle quoted:
What is within the outer man, is manifested on the outward appearance and actions. If my outward appearance is manifesting those things that are not in obediance to the word of truth, this is good indication that I am not in obediance. You would be making a poor and unbiblical judgement, to which we are to judge all things. We are not to cast our own judgement upon others, but the judgements of God in the scriptures judge all. If I am living God's truth I will be in accordance with those truths within, and God's will within. If I am not, then this is good indication I am not in obediance, and need to be told. If I then do not hear and obey the correction, I am then to be avoided, to help bring me out of hellfire. This is God's truth. If you truly loved me and the Lord, you would tell me, and if I did not take correction, you would avoid me, for not only the benefit of the church, but for MY BENEFIT also. God's ways, are not the ways of the world.
--------------------------------------------------
AVL1984 quoted:
Michelle, that is your opinion as far as my judgement. I'll give you and example. I am a man. I have longer hair than most men. Most would immediately judge according to that particular look or style of my hair. I also have a beard and moustache. I look more like a Charlie Daniels than a former preacher. I can already hear the wheels in your mind running in judgement. But, the thought that first comes to mind is not to judge my salvation, my being right with God, etc. It should be "are there any causes for the man to have longer hair?"
--------------------------------------------------
Michelle quoted:
If you had told me that you had long hair only, without explanation, I would not automatically assume that you were being disobediant, but I would indeed wonder why, when God has been very clear about this matter. We should approach others in meekness, and kindness, but with truth and love. I would most likely ask you why, in respect to what God has said about it. This would give the opportunity for an explanation. If your reasons were contrary to the scriptural truth, such as because I like my hair long, and there is nothing wrong with it, or God does not tell us this, then this would cause me to earnestly share with you the truth about it and why. If you then did not listen, I would have to, for not only my benefit, but your benefit first, avoid you.
--------------------------------------------------
Here it IS:
--------------------------------------------------
AVL1984 quoted:
Oh, so Jesus avoided prostitutes, tax collectors, publicans and sinners. Okay. So, let me see, you are to separate yourself so much that you are of no earthly good, or to put yourself in a higher, mightier bracket. How unChristlike this would be.
--------------------------------------------------
Michelle quoted:
We are to HATE what God HATES, and when we are saved, we INDEED DO, in order to approach others in love. If we do not HATE sin, we cannot love God, nor can we please HIM. We cannot be HIS disciple, nor can we pick up the cross and FOLLOW HIM.
--------------------------------------------------
To which others responded to and also took this outside the realm of this thread and what I was initially talking about in respects to the church and those claiming to be christian.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
gb quoted:
Michelle:
Remember I am taliking about then and not now. I think you are trying to take what I say and apply it directly to today. It was the norm then, not now in our culture. It was only directly applicable then. We have different cultural norms in America than they did.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michelle quoted:
Since when are we to adjust biblical truth to the times and culture of the world? Does God change? Does God's will change? Is God's truth the same yesturday, today, and tomorrow? What makes todays society and culture, different in this respect? Does God expect the woman to keep her head covered in honour to her husband, ultimately in honour to her Lord, or not? Are you saying this does not apply today? So if I were to walk into your church with my head bald or shaven, and claimed I was born again of the Spirit, you would then believe me? You would not see the rebellion in me?
--------------------------------------------------
AVL1984 quoted:
Michelle, I for one would believe you. Why? Because man judges from the outward appearance and God judges the heart. To say, however that culture and times don't apply in the word of God is just plain ludicrous. Even God refers to the sun, moon and stars being for times and seasons. And Christ came "in the fullness of time". Cultures differed even then, as they do now. Biblical truth isn't adjusted because of this fact, but application of those truths is.
--------------------------------------------------
Michelle quoted:
What is within the outer man, is manifested on the outward appearance and actions. If my outward appearance is manifesting those things that are not in obediance to the word of truth, this is good indication that I am not in obediance. You would be making a poor and unbiblical judgement, to which we are to judge all things. We are not to cast our own judgement upon others, but the judgements of God in the scriptures judge all. If I am living God's truth I will be in accordance with those truths within, and God's will within. If I am not, then this is good indication I am not in obediance, and need to be told. If I then do not hear and obey the correction, I am then to be avoided, to help bring me out of hellfire. This is God's truth. If you truly loved me and the Lord, you would tell me, and if I did not take correction, you would avoid me, for not only the benefit of the church, but for MY BENEFIT also. God's ways, are not the ways of the world.
--------------------------------------------------
AVL1984 quoted:
Michelle, that is your opinion as far as my judgement. I'll give you and example. I am a man. I have longer hair than most men. Most would immediately judge according to that particular look or style of my hair. I also have a beard and moustache. I look more like a Charlie Daniels than a former preacher. I can already hear the wheels in your mind running in judgement. But, the thought that first comes to mind is not to judge my salvation, my being right with God, etc. It should be "are there any causes for the man to have longer hair?"
--------------------------------------------------
Michelle quoted:
If you had told me that you had long hair only, without explanation, I would not automatically assume that you were being disobediant, but I would indeed wonder why, when God has been very clear about this matter. We should approach others in meekness, and kindness, but with truth and love. I would most likely ask you why, in respect to what God has said about it. This would give the opportunity for an explanation. If your reasons were contrary to the scriptural truth, such as because I like my hair long, and there is nothing wrong with it, or God does not tell us this, then this would cause me to earnestly share with you the truth about it and why. If you then did not listen, I would have to, for not only my benefit, but your benefit first, avoid you.
--------------------------------------------------
Here it IS:
--------------------------------------------------
AVL1984 quoted:
Oh, so Jesus avoided prostitutes, tax collectors, publicans and sinners. Okay. So, let me see, you are to separate yourself so much that you are of no earthly good, or to put yourself in a higher, mightier bracket. How unChristlike this would be.
--------------------------------------------------
Michelle quoted:
We are to HATE what God HATES, and when we are saved, we INDEED DO, in order to approach others in love. If we do not HATE sin, we cannot love God, nor can we please HIM. We cannot be HIS disciple, nor can we pick up the cross and FOLLOW HIM.
--------------------------------------------------
To which others responded to and also took this outside the realm of this thread and what I was initially talking about in respects to the church and those claiming to be christian.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
I believe you initially asked a question....
Michelle quoted:
"Since when are we to adjust biblical truth to the times and culture of the world? Does God change? Does God's will change? Is God's truth the same yesturday, today, and tomorrow? What makes todays society and culture, different in this respect? Does God expect the woman to keep her head covered in honour to her husband, ultimately in honour to her Lord, or not? Are you saying this does not apply today? So if I were to walk into your church with my head bald or shaven, and claimed I was born again of the Spirit, you would then believe me? You would not see the rebellion in me?"
I simply answered. That I would believe you. If you noticed, I did attempt to get the subject back within it's element, which you avoided with your attacks, which are so typical of you, using basically that someone has turned it into something else. I'm surprised you didn't use "if you'd only understand, you'd understand". Below is my quote trying to get the subject back on track.
"Now, is it possible to get this thread back on track. I haven't really got any outside sources for headcoverings, historical or otherwise. I do have what has been the tradition of the church up until the early to mid 1900's in many churches. Women did then, and in some cases, still do wear headcoverings. Many at the synagogue in Nashville do. Some do not. Many in the Catholic church here do, but some do not. And then hardly any in the Baptist church do at all. Pentecostals seem to be evenly split. Is it a societal thing, or is it Biblical? On that particular thing I haven't studied it enough to be sure."
Michelle quoted:
"Since when are we to adjust biblical truth to the times and culture of the world? Does God change? Does God's will change? Is God's truth the same yesturday, today, and tomorrow? What makes todays society and culture, different in this respect? Does God expect the woman to keep her head covered in honour to her husband, ultimately in honour to her Lord, or not? Are you saying this does not apply today? So if I were to walk into your church with my head bald or shaven, and claimed I was born again of the Spirit, you would then believe me? You would not see the rebellion in me?"
I simply answered. That I would believe you. If you noticed, I did attempt to get the subject back within it's element, which you avoided with your attacks, which are so typical of you, using basically that someone has turned it into something else. I'm surprised you didn't use "if you'd only understand, you'd understand". Below is my quote trying to get the subject back on track.
"Now, is it possible to get this thread back on track. I haven't really got any outside sources for headcoverings, historical or otherwise. I do have what has been the tradition of the church up until the early to mid 1900's in many churches. Women did then, and in some cases, still do wear headcoverings. Many at the synagogue in Nashville do. Some do not. Many in the Catholic church here do, but some do not. And then hardly any in the Baptist church do at all. Pentecostals seem to be evenly split. Is it a societal thing, or is it Biblical? On that particular thing I haven't studied it enough to be sure."
--------------------------------------------------
"Since when are we to adjust biblical truth to the times and culture of the world? Does God change? Does God's will change? Is God's truth the same yesturday, today, and tomorrow? What makes todays society and culture, different in this respect? Does God expect the woman to keep her head covered in honour to her husband, ultimately in honour to her Lord, or not? Are you saying this does not apply today? So if I were to walk into your church with my head bald or shaven, and claimed I was born again of the Spirit, you would then believe me? You would not see the rebellion in me?"
--------------------------------------------------
I was right on topic not only with this in the above, but the reply to your answer to my last question. You brought this topic into another realm - those unsaved outside of the church, to which is NOT WHAT I was speaking of, AND to which took this thread off it's initial topic. And in the above comments of mine, is what was also in relation to the comments you made about headcoverings to which you ignored my questions (and comments about it and twisted them into an off topic), and said this:
--------------------------------------------------
Is it a societal thing, or is it Biblical? On that particular thing I haven't studied it enough to be sure."
--------------------------------------------------
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
"Since when are we to adjust biblical truth to the times and culture of the world? Does God change? Does God's will change? Is God's truth the same yesturday, today, and tomorrow? What makes todays society and culture, different in this respect? Does God expect the woman to keep her head covered in honour to her husband, ultimately in honour to her Lord, or not? Are you saying this does not apply today? So if I were to walk into your church with my head bald or shaven, and claimed I was born again of the Spirit, you would then believe me? You would not see the rebellion in me?"
--------------------------------------------------
I was right on topic not only with this in the above, but the reply to your answer to my last question. You brought this topic into another realm - those unsaved outside of the church, to which is NOT WHAT I was speaking of, AND to which took this thread off it's initial topic. And in the above comments of mine, is what was also in relation to the comments you made about headcoverings to which you ignored my questions (and comments about it and twisted them into an off topic), and said this:
--------------------------------------------------
Is it a societal thing, or is it Biblical? On that particular thing I haven't studied it enough to be sure."
--------------------------------------------------
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Yammer, yammer...It reverted back to headcoverings, but nice try at a dodge. You seem to do that a lot.
I see you pick and choose which parts of posts you are going to use in arguments to try and make yourself look right...again...yammer, yammer. I asked if it was a societal thing or Biblical. That does not take it off topic. And to top that off, it does affect those outside the (baptist)church, as it is used in other religions as well. Again, to you...yammer, yammer.
I see you pick and choose which parts of posts you are going to use in arguments to try and make yourself look right...again...yammer, yammer. I asked if it was a societal thing or Biblical. That does not take it off topic. And to top that off, it does affect those outside the (baptist)church, as it is used in other religions as well. Again, to you...yammer, yammer.
--------------------------------------------------
Yammer, yammer...It reverted back to headcoverings, but nice try at a dodge. You seem to do that a lot.
--------------------------------------------------
YOu took it off topic with this:
--------------------------------------------------
AVL1984 quoted:
Oh, so Jesus avoided prostitutes, tax collectors, publicans and sinners. Okay. So, let me see, you are to separate yourself so much that you are of no earthly good, or to put yourself in a higher, mightier bracket. How unChristlike this would be.
--------------------------------------------------
AND you continued it, even up until this page of the thread by this:
--------------------------------------------------
This is why I've made the statements I've made. When dealing with non-Christians we are not to cut them off as you suggest. Christians will not win people by cutting them off. They will win them by LIMITING their contact. Amos 3:3 doesn't imply a total cutting off of those who don't agree with you.
--------------------------------------------------
and this.....
--------------------------------------------------
Not really, Michelle. I think you need to take a class in hermenuetics. It might greatly benefit you.
You constantly say the Bible says the opposite of what EVERYONE says except your KJVo cronies. That's truly a shame. In some of your posts you WEREN'T speaking of those who are just the church. Again, the spin from you goes on and on......As JohnV already stated, separation can and often is abused...especially by the HYPER KJVo/IFB set.
--------------------------------------------------
Oh initially I was, until YOU turned it off topic.
And you accuse me of "yammer, yammer". Look in the mirror first.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Yammer, yammer...It reverted back to headcoverings, but nice try at a dodge. You seem to do that a lot.
--------------------------------------------------
YOu took it off topic with this:
--------------------------------------------------
AVL1984 quoted:
Oh, so Jesus avoided prostitutes, tax collectors, publicans and sinners. Okay. So, let me see, you are to separate yourself so much that you are of no earthly good, or to put yourself in a higher, mightier bracket. How unChristlike this would be.
--------------------------------------------------
AND you continued it, even up until this page of the thread by this:
--------------------------------------------------
This is why I've made the statements I've made. When dealing with non-Christians we are not to cut them off as you suggest. Christians will not win people by cutting them off. They will win them by LIMITING their contact. Amos 3:3 doesn't imply a total cutting off of those who don't agree with you.
--------------------------------------------------
and this.....
--------------------------------------------------
Not really, Michelle. I think you need to take a class in hermenuetics. It might greatly benefit you.
You constantly say the Bible says the opposite of what EVERYONE says except your KJVo cronies. That's truly a shame. In some of your posts you WEREN'T speaking of those who are just the church. Again, the spin from you goes on and on......As JohnV already stated, separation can and often is abused...especially by the HYPER KJVo/IFB set.
--------------------------------------------------
Oh initially I was, until YOU turned it off topic.
And you accuse me of "yammer, yammer". Look in the mirror first.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle