Kevin Ezell, NAMB claim state conventions are SBC entities in SCOTUS brief

[Revmitchell]

BREAKING: SBC via NAMB trustees lie to US Supreme Court.
Once again Southern Baptists present a false statement to federal courts in desperate effort to defeat Will McRaney and protect Kevin Ezell.
The Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission lied to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in the Will McRaney case. Now, lawyers for the North American Mission Board (NAMB) just filed a brief with the Supreme Court of the United States that is deceptive and false. Namely, NAMB just claimed state conventions are Southern Baptist entities.


Kevin Ezell, NAMB claim state conventions are SBC entities in SCOTUS brief - Capstone Report

 

[JonC]

I guess they are just as much Southern Baptist entities as Southern Baptist churches, perhaps moreso as one of the objectives of these state conventions is to increase local church giving to the Cooperative Program (goal of having all churches give 10%).

 

[Revmitchell]

I guess they are just as much Southern Baptist entities as Southern Baptist churches, perhaps moreso as one of the objectives of these state conventions is to increase local church giving to the Cooperative Program (goal of having all churches give 10%).

you miss the point saying entities is not what they are saying

 

[Salty]

This case falls right in the heartland of the church autonomy doctrine. A former Southern Baptist minister brought this suit to protest his dismissal from church leadership.

McRaney v. North American Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, Inc., No. 19-60293 (5th Cir. 2020)

 

[JonC]

you miss the point saying entities is not what they are saying

Yes, I probably did. I just went off the title of the OP. The SBC convention has overstepped more times than once, so I was not too interested in the article - but I'll look at it.

 

[JonC]

Read the article. They are pushing it a bit. Even if it is voluntary the state conventions are distinctly Southern Baptist and have the same objectives (which does meet the definition of a SBC entity). But I do not know the context, so it may have been a false claim.

 

[Jerome]

Lifeway publication SBC FAQs:

"How many Southern Baptist entities are there?
There are currently eleven entities."

1. International Mission Board
2. North American Mission Board
3. LifeWay Christian Resources
4. GuideStone Financial Resources
5. Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
6. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
7. New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary
8. Gateway Seminary of the Southern Baptist Convention
9. Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
10. Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
11. Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission

 

[Revmitchell]

Read the article. They are pushing it a bit. Even if it is voluntary the state conventions are distinctly Southern Baptist and have the same objectives (which does meet the definition of a SBC entity). But I do not know the context, so it may have been a false claim.

The national convention is autonomous, the state convention is autonomous, the local association is autonomous, the local church is autonomous, the church members tell the conventions what to do by vote. The national convention cannot have a person of the state convention fired. This is what happened tonWill McRaney and why he is suing. The national convention is claiming authority over the state convention. The bylaws shows very different.

What the national convention is doing runs counter to everything the SBC cooperative has ever been about.

 

[JonC]

The national convention is autonomous, the state convention is autonomous, the local association is autonomous, the local church is autonomous, the church members tell the conventions what to do by vote. The national convention cannot have a person of the state convention fired. This is what happened tonWill McRaney and why he is suing. The national convention is claiming authority over the state convention. The bylaws shows very different.

What the national convention is doing runs counter to everything the SBC cooperative has ever been about.

Yes. But they have the same "objectives" through the same programs. This meets at least one definition of "entity" (Websters dictionary). They are all SBC "entities", even if voluntary.

What was the context of the claim?

 

[Jerome]

sbc.net/about/what-we-do/legal-documentation/bylaws/

"14. Entities and Auxiliary of the Convention

A. The entities of the Convention are as follows:

General Boards:
The International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, Richmond, Virginia;
The North American Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, Inc., Alpharetta, Georgia;
LifeWay Christian Resources of the Southern Baptist Convention, Nashville, Tennessee;
GuideStone Financial Resources of the Southern Baptist Convention, Dallas, Texas.

Institutions:
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, Kentucky;
The Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas;
New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, New Orleans, Louisiana;
Gateway Seminary of the Southern Baptist Convention, Ontario, California;
The Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Inc., Wake Forest, North Carolina;
Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Inc., Kansas City, Missouri.

Commission:
The Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, Nashville, Tennessee.

B. Auxiliary: Woman’s Missionary Union, Birmingham, Alabama, is an auxiliary of the Convention."


That's it!

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes. But they have the same "objectives" through the same programs. This meets at least one definition of "entity" (Websters dictionary). They are all SBC "entities", even if voluntary.

What was the context of the claim?

sigh, entity is irrelevant and I just explained the context of the claim

 

[JonC]

sigh, entity is irrelevant and I just explained the context of the claim

So the claim was the SBC is a governing body over the state conventions.

I agree that is incorrect. But I think that is the direction the Convention has been moving. Not long ago they issued a resolution about "rebel flags". It is overstepping and the churches should draw a line. Unfortunately I suspect the smaller churches loose their voice in the Convention.

 

[Reynolds]

The national convention is autonomous, the state convention is autonomous, the local association is autonomous, the local church is autonomous, the church members tell the conventions what to do by vote. The national convention cannot have a person of the state convention fired. This is what happened tonWill McRaney and why he is suing. The national convention is claiming authority over the state convention. The bylaws shows very different.

What the national convention is doing runs counter to everything the SBC cooperative has ever been about.

Everything the Woke SBC leadership is now doing runs counter to what SBC is supposed to be.

 

[Reynolds]

So the claim was the SBC is a governing body over the state conventions.

I agree that is incorrect. But I think that is the direction the Convention has been moving. Not long ago they issued a resolution about "rebel flags". It is overstepping and the churches should draw a line. Unfortunately I suspect the smaller churches loose their voice in the Convention.

The MEGAS are running SBC. Small churches actually have a tremendous number of eligible messengers, but they do not show up to vote. It's pretty easy for a small church to be eligible to send 12 messengers, but most don't send any. I believe the max is still 12. The little SBC church down road from my house that has 30 members could send as many messengers as J.D. Greear church, but they don't ever send any. They just gripe and talk about pulling out.

 

[JonC]

The MEGAS are running SBC. Small churches actually have a tremendous number of eligible messengers, but they do not show up to vote.

Problem is "money talks". I know several small SBC churches who contribute to the SBC to appease older members. Many of these pastors would withdraw if doing so would not be so divisive.

I have also noticed that often the SBC tries to choose (via recommendation...sometimes a bit to strongly) pastors to fill vacancies.

 

[Reynolds]

Problem is "money talks". I know several small SBC churches who contribute to the SBC to appease older members. Many of these pastors would withdraw if doing so would not be so divisive.

I have also noticed that often the SBC tries to choose (via recommendation...sometimes a bit to strongly) pastors to fill vacancies.

The SBC has become very manipulative. The moderates/liberals are running the show. They have most convinced that they are conservatives. My pastor told me Matt Chandler was a conservative because he embraced the Baptist faith and message. I told him "If you were not my pastor, I would call you an idiot." He got a funny look on his face and started jabbering about how Matt is really not all that bad, he is just misunderstood. I said "No, he is just a woke piece of garbage" and started talking to someone else.

 

[rlvaughn]

How do you all view this suit in light of Paul's speaking of not going to court before unbelievers? (1 Corinthians 6:1-8)

Thanks.

 

[Salty]

Many small churches - could make a difference -
How many of those small churches have bivo pastors -
may not be able to afford to attend the SBC annual......

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

How do you all view this suit in light of Paul's speaking of not going to court before unbelievers? (1 Corinthians 6:1-8)

I wondered about that. Was there no way to resolve such a dispute without going to court? Some sort of arbitration?

 

[Reynolds]

Many small churches - could make a difference -
How many of those small churches have bivo pastors -
may not be able to afford to attend the SBC annual......

You don't have to send the pastor. The answer is proxy voting. The SBC should allow churches and messengers to proxy their votes. If 4 small churches all having 12 votes each could proxy their votes to one person, they could go in together and send one messenger with 48 votes. It makes perfect sense, but won't happen because it strips the big churches of power. We now have technology which would easily overcome the voting logistics issues it would have caused in the past.