No one said He did? Why would you suggest such a thing. God is not the Author of sin!
No one suggests this, so why do you say it?
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Predestination Is God's Identification As The true and Living God
- Thread starter Zaatar71
- Start date
Many in Isaiah's day turned from God to idols. That is why they were challenged as in the OP. It looks as if many have made that same error, by turning from special revelation, to man made idols, like "free will".
It is just as much an Idol as the wooden idols Isaiah wrote about.
It is just as much an Idol as the wooden idols Isaiah wrote about.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You really need to start reading what is written not what you want to see.
@Zaatar71 your wrote "God has ordained many things to come to pass. Unbelief, apostasy, second death, haters of God. Not just the happy promise verses."
@Ben1445 wrote
"God does not make people to not believe. God is not the author of unbelief. God is not the author of apostasy. God made people who hate Him. He did not ordain them to hate Him."
and
"If God is choosing the wrong to happen, He is divided against Himself because He is making wrong and right to happen."
How do you get this "He seems to want to blame God for mans sin. This cannot be!" from what he posted?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Free will is biblical the views that come from 4th century pagan thought are not.
The basis of calvinism is 4th century pagan thought brought into the church by augustine and carried forward to today by calvinism. So who is turning to the idols of their own making @Zaatar71?
Hello Silverhair, my friend, It seems to me, that you and Ben are missing out of what special revelation has revealed to the Church.
Dr. Bob offered solid truth, that most people embrace as the truth of God. he does not blame God for man's sin. Does it bother you that you or ben would suggest God is the author of sin? the historic confessions of faith, would never suggest such a thing, in fact they explicitly deny such a misguided notion. if you see that you are at odds with all the major confessions of the faith, once delivered to the saints, why do you think it is not you that needs to re-study and adjust to what scripture teaches.
Let me ask you SH, in your world, do things happen, that God did not ordain to take place? Does God not control even the wicked acts of wicked men, without being the cause of sin?
Acts2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Who was responsible for this crime? the wicked men, or God?
I do not see 4th century thought in scripture my friend, I do see the doctrines of grace in all 66 books however. Why do you make up fantasies instead of dealing with scripture. You noticed how ben failed on suggesting there are not two peoples in view, in Romans 5. Without that truth , all manner of error follows. Did you agree with Ben's "position", or do you think he needs to review his statements?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@Zaatar71 you and Bob and a few others on this board have confused calvimism with the word of God.
The truth of God is not what we see in calvinism but rather pagan philosophy.
It is your LBCF/WCF that bring the charge that God is the author of sin against God. Your divine determinism requires that God dictate all things not just some things.
So the reality is that as long as you hold to your TULIP/DoG you will be at odds with scripture.
In my world God has brought about certain things that will further His plan for humanity, the cross is one example. In my world God has also given man a free will and thus man is responsible for his choices. If he chooses to trust in the risen Christ he will be saved if he chooses to reject Christ he will be lost.
In your world God has to bring about all things which would include sin and evil. In your world man does not have a free will with which to choose to trust in or reject Jesus as what he will do has been determined by God.
Look at what you asked here, "Does God not control even the wicked acts of wicked men, without being the cause of sin?" Under your religion God has to determined the very actions that men do so by that He is the author of sin and evil.
God being Omniscient knows all that is going to happen and as Christ said He know the heart of all men. Does God cause some things yes but that does not require that He cause all things which is what your divine determinism requires.
Calvinists want to have it both ways, God determines all things when it is convenient for your view but then He does not when it is inconvenient for your view.
Are you sure about that SH ? Let's check in on the Confessions of faith and see if you are accurate??? 1689 cof.
Chapter 3 Of God’s Decree
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness din accomplishing his decree. ( a Isa 46:10; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17; Rom 9:15,18; b Jam 1:13; 1Jo 1:5; c Act 4:27-28; Joh 19:11; d Num 23:19; Eph 1:3-5)
looks like you misquoted it! is this why you blame God for mans sin? The writers here clearly saw what the bible teaches. Is it possible you post was a big, swing and a miss???
You have not shown that at all. In fact, you help make the case for Dr.Bob, Brightflame, and every other Cal who has posted.
Consider your ways, SH!
ok. let's see what you have got!
Man is responsible for his choices even though his will is bound by sin, as Jesus taught.
men are born children of wrath, and as Dr.Bob and BF have posted over and over, there is not one that will seek God of their own volition, God said that in Psalm 14, and had Paul repeat it in Romans 3
Hold it right there SH, Do things exist in your world that are outside the control of your deity?
Yes, thankfully God has considered mankind as fallen in Adam, and has effectually worked in a multitude to equip them to be more than willing to receive the truth of the gospel! I like this positive interaction Sh, are you enjoying it? has your view been changed yet?
No Sh, I knew you do not understand the language of the confessional pastors,
What do you think this part means? nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; i
You do not understand the position yet! For you to say this, shows clearly you have drifted from truth. Can you see that?
No, they just understand what scripture says!
37818, They do not believe this verse as written! They are saying that men can come all by themselves , without it being the work of God, or they would agree with the confessional statements.
37818
Well-Known Member
Who are they? How do they deny John 14:6?
1 Timothy 2:5-6, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, . . . .
Alright drama queen. Go back and read it again. I said the exact opposite of what you are ascribing to me. I said very clearly that God is not to blame for man's sin. this is the logical conclusion of Calvinistic determinism.
You are the one who blamed God for man's sin in post 37.
I disagree with your post. You said God is responsible for them. I said He is not.
This is one more reason I cannot agree with your position. you say one thing and claim you mean the opposite.
You suggested it in post 37.
you did. you use the words, but you don't know what they mean.
They are those who deny the last part of 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
They are those who say man can come on their own, apart from the effectual work of God.
I did not Blame God for man's sin. You did in post 37!!!
Silverhair pointed that out. You do only hear what you want to hear and not what it says. You fit the definition of "seeing they see not."
Your mistake has been pointed out. you continue to pedal it anyway. You are misrepresenting what I said by saying the exact opposite of what I said. I know that the word is a strong word for the BB but you need to stop lying about what I said. I don't appreciate it and I use the word seriously because your accusations against me are serious and unfounded. I denied them. Silverhair pointed out that you ascribe to me beliefs exactly opposite of what I stated.
It bothers me that you continue to suggest that I said this when I did not.
I wouldn't care about someone else's confession of faith in regards to my own salvation, but I'm glad they agree with me. I'll take your word for it.
you are at odds with what I said. by your own testimony God is not the author of sin and the historic confessions of faith agree with me:
I know the question is not directed to me but i'll answer anyway.
We both live in the same world.
Yes. God told Adam not to eat the fruit and was not divided against Himself when Adam chose to sin. Adam took his own free will and sinned. God did not cause, coerce, condition the circumstance to happen. I know this because Adam was not tempted by God. God does not tempt any man. God doesn't tempt anyone by proxy either.
No. Man's free will is responsible for the sin. God is not controlling men to make them sin without being responsible for what He makes them do. This is why God is not controlling men who sin. they have a free will.
The delivery into the hands of sinners was the plan and counsel of God. The following acts need not be choreographed. Man is contrary to God and is capable of doing all these things without being controlled. You should not have a hard time acknowledging this since man is totally depraved.
But according to your previous implication,
But according to your previous implication, God controlled them and made them do it.
Thus, YOU have stated that God has controlled the sinner into sinning, while denying outright, the very idea you have proposed. It doesn't make any sense.
Ability to control and ordaining are two very different things. They need not both exist at the same time.
No one is coming to God without Christ. No one has suggested that we bridged the gap. No one has said they make it to God on their own.
No one here.
Calling me names will not change your mistaken view into truth Ben
No, your post blames God for mans sin, because you do not understand the term ordained!
This suggests you do not know what determinism is!
No, not at all! let me ask you Ben- Are there things that happen that your god has not ordained to come to pass? If so what happens in your world that is outside of God's control? I think you cannot answer this question correctly, because you fail to identidy the heart of the issue.
You are free to disagree Ben, no one stops you from that.
That looks like a very specific accusation? Are you sure you did not switch the wording around? Can you show where I said that, by a direct quote?
Or perhaps you cannot read the Confession of faith , or my posts accurately? I think it is the latter!
You, Van, and Silverhair, have offered that very thing when you deny the effectual call of God in salvation, and when you suggest men come to God savingly, FIRST, THEN THEY GET THE SPIRIT! In that scenario, is God just a spectator, waiting to see what man does? Then He reacts to man's "free will choice"?
37818
Well-Known Member
You haven't identified any Baptist Christian on this Board. Quote their denial.and Post #.