Reasons Why Professed Christians Fail To See or Grasp The Doctrines Of Grace

[Ben1445]

I would be interested in his own statements that show that he did not believe in the God of the Bible.

Was Thomas Jefferson a bible teacher? A theologian? He knew calvin was unsaved? Did he know his heart? he does not mention Jesus, are you sure he was a believer?

I didn’t say. I said I agree with his statement and I gave him credit instead of plagiarizing.

This does not sound like a Christian to me:
Jefferson’s views on prayer are even more ambiguous. He dismissed Biblical miracles as myth, implying doubts about the efficacy of prayer. But he recognized an obligation of humans to worship God, and he often prayed publicly, at least in very broad terms.

I would be interested in his own statements that show that he did not believe in the God of the Bible.

His second inaugural address included a prayer request for his listeners: “I ask you to join with me in supplications, that he [that Being in whose hands we are] will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures, that whatsoever they do, shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations.”[9]

Do you disagree with what he prayed for?

Of course, as with references to an afterlife, these prayers might be understood in the context of social convention and political posturing. In the end, it can be said that he prayed although apparently with little belief or expectation of miraculous divine intervention.

That prayer hardly proves that he did not believe in miracles. It does not show that he does not believe in specific revelation. It does show him asking God to enlighten, guide, and prosper His servants, believers, in a way that would result in God’s good. (Thy kingdom come)

Jefferson and Christianity​

While Jefferson was a firm theist, the God in which he believed was not the traditional Christian divinity. Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).[10]

I reject that we are judged for their sins of others.
Jer. 31:29-31
In those days they shall say no more,
The fathers have eaten a sour grape,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity:
every man that eateth the sour grape,
his teeth shall be set on edge.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”

This is a blanket statement that speaks without knowledge of the majority but claims the majority.
Of course, since it is a Calvinist post, one must read it understanding that most Calvinists would not consider Christians with these views to be Christians.
I am glad there are some.

Try again Ben, this does not look like a trusted guide. he is critical of calvin, but denies Jesus is God! i do not recommend this Ben!

Show me where He denies Jesus is God.

I would be interested in his own statements that show that he did not believe in the God of the Bible

 

[Zaatar71]

I didn’t say. I said I agree with his statement and I gave him credit instead of plagiarizing.



Do you disagree with what he prayed for?

That prayer hardly proves that he did not believe in miracles. It does not show that he does not believe in specific revelation. It does show him asking God to enlighten, guide, and prosper His servants, believers, in a way that would result in God’s good. (Thy kingdom come)

I reject that we are judged for their sins of others.
Jer. 31:29-31
In those days they shall say no more,
The fathers have eaten a sour grape,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity:
every man that eateth the sour grape,
his teeth shall be set on edge.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This is a blanket statement that speaks without knowledge of the majority but claims the majority.
Of course, since it is a Calvinist post, one must read it understanding that most Calvinists would not consider Christians with these views to be Christians.
I am glad there are some.

Show me where He denies Jesus is God.

I would be interested in his own statements that show that he did not believe in the God of the Bible

Here you go Ben;

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

A Christian, a deist, or an atheist? Thomas Jefferson’s religious beliefs have long been a subject of public discussion and controversy,

www.monticello.org

Was Thomas Jefferson a Christian? (Old Essay) - The Christian Thinker

This essay has been rewritten. See here for the new version. Americans have, just like every other citizen of every nation, a great sense of pride about their country’s history and traditions. This is natural and normal (as long as it doesn’t make that nation boastful and make the traditions...

thechristianthinker.com

"I am a Real Christian": The Religious Views of Thomas Jefferson (Part 1 of 4) - Rick Chromey

Thomas Jefferson's views on religion are complex. Many people today believe he was agnostic or even atheist.

rickchromey.com

Not a real Christian from what i can see. can you deny Jesus is God, and still be a Christian? so Ben, would you think those who wrote the confession of faith might be Christians, or Thomas jefferson who denied the supernatural, miracles, and trinity?

 

[5 point Gillinist]

View attachment 10987

He should have stayed off those Calvinist websites. Terrible is the error of the internet that even the framers of the laws and governments of the United States were not able to grasp the truths that Zaatar holds to be self evident. (Satire)

No. I didn’t get this image from the internet. It is a quote that was sent to me. I don’t think Jefferson posted this on his anti-cal website. But according to Zaatar, it should be rejected not on the merit of what it says, just because you must blindly follow Calvinism (you don’t really have a choice). It must not be considered because it is anti-cal.

I don't take theological guidance from men who reject the God of the bible. I find Jefferson's opinion to be about as valid as Rabbi Tovia Singer's opinion of Reformed Theology.

 

[Ben1445]

He just quoted a text saying Lydia whose heart the Lord opened! Do you think we open our own heart then?

You don’t listen well.
I didn’t say that. You would know it if you read what I said correctly. Your inability to understand my words doesn’t help me believe you are able to understand God’s words. The more you twist my words, the more I believe you are capable of twisting God’s Words.

God can only hope someone will believe? he actually has nothing to do with it?

Definitely God is the cause of salvation.
This doesn’t mean God caused everything

We say God works in our hearts. This doesn’t exclusively mean that when God works on hearts they will be opened.

These statements of mine don’t sound like I think God had nothing to do with it.

Chosen for what Ben?

Adoption. The redemption of our bodies as described in Romans 8.

 

[Ben1445]

Here you go Ben;

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

A Christian, a deist, or an atheist? Thomas Jefferson’s religious beliefs have long been a subject of public discussion and controversy,

www.monticello.org

So you couldn’t find one to quote to me so you gave me the responsibility of finding your burden of proof.
Okay I’ll look. I am not looking for a prayer he prayed for direction for a nation to be postured as a prayer for salvation

 

[Van]

Select a number, then support or oppose it biblically; If you think of other such reasons, feel free to offer your own reasons and explanation

1] They have never studied it for themselves

2] They have been mislead by a false teacher, who never understood the issues for themselves

3] They go on anti- Calvinist websites, and drink in the error ,unchecked by someone who understands the position

4] True spiritual understanding comes by The Spirit of God. They deny this is needful

5] Christians who do believe these truths, have not studied it well enough to communicate it to those who oppose these truths

6] Some struggle with the word of God emotionally, so this hinders them from engaging their mind to prayer and study

7 ] Some lack at some level the mental faculties to connect the Spiritual dots of theology.

8] When offered truth by scripture, or confessions of faith, they turn and make excuses, it is man made, it is philosophy, etc.

9] Sadly some who profess to be Christians, are still men of flesh, natural and unsaved, so truth will not be found in them

10} Others will repeat foolish myths that they have heard or read, without biblical support

Reasons why professed Christians fail to see that the doctrines of grace are false

1) They have never studied the verses used for their supposed support.
2) They have been mislead by a false teacher, who also had not discerned their falsehoods.
3) They go on pro-Calvinist websites, and drink in the error, unchecked by someone who understands.
4) They do not believe in the Baptist distinctive of soul liberty.
5) They are blinded by their indoctrination such that they cannot grasp clearly presented truth.
6) Some struggle with the need to humble themselves, and seek beliefs that God controls everything.
7) Many are plenty smart to grasp the truth, but pride and prejudice blind them.
8) Many reject the truth of scripture and cling to the man-made doctrines of grace.
9) Some believe the lost cannot receive the gospel, so they preach to the choir.
10) Others will repeat the same debunked claims, because they are unable to respond to the truth.​

 

[Ben1445]

I don't take theological guidance from men who reject the God of the bible. I find Jefferson's opinion to be about as valid as Rabbi Tovia Singer's opinion of Reformed Theology.

Thanks for your opinion. I did NOT set him up to be your Bible teacher. He made a statement I agree with and I credit him for it.
If you can quote him and show me what he believed, I will listen. I have never been able to be convinced from his own words that he made anything more than a collection of his favorite verses. His own Bible Promise Book.

 

[Zaatar71]

I don't take theological guidance from men who reject the God of the bible. I find Jefferson's opinion to be about as valid as Rabbi Tovia Singer's opinion of Reformed Theology.

I am with you Gillinist! Many who say the majority of Christians do not believe the doctrines of grace, perhaps are believing that Thomas jefferson and others like him are "christians". Strange indeed!

 

[Silverhair]

What do you mean by this term determinism? you keep using it. What do you think it means?

The belief that God determines all events, including every human action and thought.

What has harmed the "body of Christ?

Do you really think that either view is uplifting the body of Christ ZA?

Look at the divisions that have come about because people become tribal and develop an us against them world view.

You know what the bible says? other men do not know? We should not listen to teachers? Your ideas seem confusing! It looks as if you are wrapped up in the 15 reasons offered why people deny these truths.

Of course I can know what the bible says. Do you not have the ability to read and understand clear English?

We can read commentaries and listen to teachers but we still have to have exercise discernment.

It seems you do not think people should do that but rather should just slavishly follow what their theological leads tell them. So it is not the word of God you trust but what some man tells you the word of God means.

 

[Ben1445]

Here you go Ben;

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

A Christian, a deist, or an atheist? Thomas Jefferson’s religious beliefs have long been a subject of public discussion and controversy,

www.monticello.org

Was Thomas Jefferson a Christian? (Old Essay) - The Christian Thinker

This essay has been rewritten. See here for the new version. Americans have, just like every other citizen of every nation, a great sense of pride about their country’s history and traditions. This is natural and normal (as long as it doesn’t make that nation boastful and make the traditions...

thechristianthinker.com

"I am a Real Christian": The Religious Views of Thomas Jefferson (Part 1 of 4) - Rick Chromey

Thomas Jefferson's views on religion are complex. Many people today believe he was agnostic or even atheist.

rickchromey.com

Not a real Christian from what i can see. can you deny Jesus is God, and still be a Christian? so Ben, would you think those who wrote the confession of faith might be Christians, or Thomas jefferson who denied the supernatural, miracles, and trinity?

What i read in your first article said that what he believed on several topics was ambiguous.
I gathered that he might not believe that the entire Scripture was God’s word. That makes him a textual critic. We have lots of them here on the BB.
If you have something to show me that is a statement that he made, please send it with context. I am not going to read every article that you send me.
Share the proof, not the fluff.

 

[Silverhair]

I am with you Gillinist! Many who say the majority of Christians do not believe the doctrines of grace, perhaps are believing that Thomas jefferson and others like him are "christians". Strange indeed!

We do not believe the DoG/TULIP which the majority of Christians rightly reject as it is not a biblical view.

That so many people would follow the, DoG/TULIP, a man-made philosophy is strange indeed.

 

[Ben1445]

I am with you Gillinist! Many who say the majority of Christians do not believe the doctrines of grace, perhaps are believing that Thomas jefferson and others like him are "christians". Strange indeed!

I don’t think about whether or not he is a believer. He is dead. There is nothing I can do for him.
If he is not a believer in Christ, I would give some fault to your Calvinist doctrines that present such a bad view of the God of mercy that is presented to us in Scripture.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Thanks for your opinion. I did NOT set him up to be your Bible teacher. He made a statement I agree with and I credit him for it.
If you can quote him and show me what he believed, I will listen. I have never been able to be convinced from his own words that he made anything more than a collection of his favorite verses. His own Bible Promise Book.

Here;

"The whole history of these books (i.e. the Gospels) is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."

Thomas Jefferson

Quite the man to quote in a favorable way. Seemingly he would reject your view as well, the difference is I wouldn't quote a blasphemer of Christ to support my view.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

I would give some fault to your Calvinist doctrines that present such a bad view of the God of mercy that is presented to us in Scripture.

I don't see anywhere in the bible men rejecting Christ because of Calvinist doctrines. Is that in the apocrypha?

 

[Silverhair]

How has God provided for people to KNow Jesus ,when they never heard about Jesus?

I know this will sound strange to you but Jesus is God and He can and does draw people to Himself through various means. Strange that a calvinist would question whether God can save whomever He wants and how He wants. Are you not the ones that tout the TULIP/DoG?

God waits to respond to us? he cannot do anything ? He just watches ? Never heard of this idea?

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Are these verse not in your bible or do you just ignore them?

people do not choose willingly?

Based on what? God expects us to choose and holds us responsible for the choices we make.

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

Well you may not have chosen wisely as you are a calvinist after all, but those of us that have freely trusted in Christ Jesus have made wise choices would you not agree?

 

[Silverhair]

I don't see anywhere in the bible men rejecting Christ because of Calvinist doctrines. Is that in the apocrypha?

I don't see anywhere in the bible of men trusting in Jesus because of the TULIP/DoG

 

[Zaatar71]

The belief that God determines all events, including every human action and thought.

Who believes such a thing? Do you have quotes from anybody who is a Christian saying this?

Do you really think that either view is uplifting the body of Christ ZA?

I think the confessional view is what actual Christians hold to.

Look at the divisions that have come about because people become tribal and develop an us against them world view.

I see that as there are a division of believers, then unbelievers. that would be us vs. them

Of course I can know what the bible says. Do you not have the ability to read and understand clear English?

Can you really know without the Spirit of God? people who read english, but do not have the Spirit, are they saved?

We can read commentaries and listen to teachers but we still have to have exercise discernment.

where does such discernment come from?

It seems you do not think people should do that but rather should just slavishly follow what their theological leads tell them. So it is not the word of God you trust but what some man tells you the word of God means.

It looks as if the confession of faith, uses a lot more scripture than you do, yet you say not to trust them???

 

[Silverhair]

Who believes such a thing? Do you have quotes from anybody who is a Christian saying this?

LBCF/WCF

God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass




(Institutes III.16.8):
we hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, he decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.

(Institutes III.23.6).
he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen.

Vincent Cheung

here is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed – not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it, as if anything can originate and happen apart from his will and power.

John Piper

“So when I say that everything that exists — including evil — is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly, I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.”

J.I. Packer:
God… orders and controls all things, human actions among them…

A.W. Pink:
“Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens except what God has eternally decreed


Mark Talbot and John Piper:
“God brings about all things in accordance with his will. It isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those that love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects… This includes God’s having even brought about the Nazi’s brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child.”.

I think the confessional view is what actual Christians hold to.

But we see different confessions so which one are Christians to follow?

I see that as there are a division of believers, then unbelievers. that would be us vs. them

You do not see the divisions between Calvinists & Arminians and those that do not hold to either camp.

Can you really know without the Spirit of God? people who read english, but do not have the Spirit, are they saved?

Did you notice that I said "I" can read the bible and understand it. Those that are Christians can do the same. Even those that are not Christians can read and understand enough to make the choice of whether that want to trust God or not.

The bible is not a mystery book as you seem to think it is.

where does such discernment come from?

From my God give ability to read and evaluate information which He has given to all men.

It looks as if the confession of faith, uses a lot more scripture than you do, yet you say not to trust them???

They have looked for scripture that they think supports their particular view.

Do not trust them over the word of God. We see a number of things is some of the confessions that do not align with scripture.

 

[Zaatar71]

LBCF/WCF

God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass




(Institutes III.16.8):
we hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, he decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.

(Institutes III.23.6).
he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen.

Vincent Cheung

here is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed – not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it, as if anything can originate and happen apart from his will and power.

John Piper

“So when I say that everything that exists — including evil — is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly, I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.”

J.I. Packer:
God… orders and controls all things, human actions among them…

A.W. Pink:
“Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens except what God has eternally decreed


Mark Talbot and John Piper:
“God brings about all things in accordance with his will. It isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those that love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects… This includes God’s having even brought about the Nazi’s brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child.”.

But we see different confessions so which one are Christians to follow?

You do not see the divisions between Calvinists & Arminians and those that do not hold to either camp.

Did you notice that I said "I" can read the bible and understand it. Those that are Christians can do the same. Even those that are not Christians can read and understand enough to make the choice of whether that want to trust God or not.

The bible is not a mystery book as you seem to think it is.

From my God give ability to read and evaluate information which He has given to all men.

They have looked for scripture that they think supports their particular view.

Do not trust them over the word of God. We see a number of things is some of the confessions that do not align with scripture.

These men got it right. they did not offer up any of the 15 reasons why men do not come to this truth. They all agree with the confessions of faith. Did you notice that? I do not see any of them quoting pagan philosophy

 

[Silverhair]

These men got it right. they did not offer up any of the 15 reasons why men do not come to this truth. They all agree with the confessions of faith. Did you notice that? I do not see any of them quoting pagan philosophy

Of course they agree with the WCF/LBCF they are all calvinists. But you asked where was determinism buy some Christian's and I showed you where and you deflect. I am shocked.