Reasons Why Professed Christians Fail To See or Grasp The Doctrines Of Grace

[atpollard]

If He responds to our choices we are responsible for them if He dictates our choices He is responsible for them.

Who is responsible for Joseph being in Egypt to save many lives (according to Genesis 50:20)?
I suspect that you have created a false dichotomy … it is not “either/or”.

 

[Silverhair]

Silver hair, let's take a look back to your posts:
Oh I forgot I do not have my Calvi dictionary on hand.
See there is just another of your many failures ZA. You keep reading your religion into the bible rather than get your theology from the bible.
You are under the delusion that calvinism is the standard by which the word of God should be understood. Oh you silly man.
I repeat the same truths in the hope that you will realize the failure of your man-made religion and turn to the real God of the bible.
IF you are so sure that your man-made religion is not based on pagan philosophy then do the hard work and prove it.We know from history that augustine brought pagan teachings into the church Might do you some good to learn some history instead of drinking the calvinist kool-aid.
I agree that calvinist determinism shoves the pendulum too far.Still no response from you rebutting that the basis of calvinism is pagan philosophy.
We have seen in history the ebb and flow between the hard of determinism and the soft of liberalism

From these posts, it looks like you are found in about half of the 15 reasons,Sh?

Actually ZA I do not really care if I am found in all of your heavily slanted reasons.

You have yet to provide any response to the historical fact that your religion is based on pagan philosophy, in fact I have not seen any calvinist on this or other boards do that other than to say "that's not true".

 

[Zaatar71]

Actually ZA I do not really care if I am found in all of your heavily slanted reasons.

You have yet to provide any response to the historical fact that your religion is based on pagan philosophy, in fact I have not seen any calvinist on this or other boards do that other than to say "that's not true".

You are in clear violation of rule #&7-10. Can you see why you miss these truths?

 

[atpollard]

The title of the topic is “Reasons Why Professed Christians Fail To See or Grasp The Doctrines Of Grace”, and while I understand the intention … if we are going to be honest … I have never actually met very many people that fail to “grasp” the Doctrines of Grace. I mean, there is some confusion over the terms, but once you explain that “Total Depravity” means that every part of a person (mind, body, spirit) is impacted by sin rather than all people are as evil as they can possibly be, people can generally grasp the concept. I have found that most that oppose it simply ”disagree”.

It is dishonest to claim that someone “does not grasp” simply because they disagree.

Likewise, I suspect that the many that disagree with me that John 6:44 speaks of human inability to choose to come to Jesus can “see” where I read John 6:44 and draw that conclusion from … they simply disagree with my conclusion. I know that when someone points to John 3:16 and claims “all means everyone without exception”, I can certainly SEE where they draw that belief from that verse and I can GRASP their doctrines … I simply disagree with their exegesis and conclusions.

So the primary reason why “Professed Christians” reject the Doctrines of Grace has nothing to do with “seeing” or “grasping”; they simply CHOOSE to believe something different (and contrary) based on placing greater emphasis on different verses of scripture than we advocates of the Doctrines of Grace do.

 

[Reynolds]

You forgot one ZA.
That your man-made religion has it's basis in 4th century pagan philosophy.

I have seen many of the C/R view disagree with what I have said but I have yet to see any show that it is wrong.


"If Calvinism is an error:
The reason most Christians reject it is because they have good discernment.

If Calvinism is true:
The ultimate reason most resist it is because God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed their resistance for His own glory.

The idea that God unchangeably predestines His own children to reject His own truth for His own glory is so intuitively false that we don’t need to refute it.
We just need to make sure that everyone understands that’s what Calvinism entails so they know to reject it." L. Flowe

The Doctrines of Grace originated with Jesus. They were built upon by Paul.

 

[Silverhair]

You are in clear violation of rule #&7-10. Can you see why you miss these truths?

So what is your point ZA. That I am not a good calvinist. I could have told you that as I trust the bible not a religion that has a questionable foundation.

Perhaps you can give a logical answer to this question ZA?

If God has unchangeably determined who will and won’t be saved, then why evangelize the lost? Aren't you just wasting your time?
I know you will say you do not know who God has elected but He does and whether you speak to them or not they will be saved, right.

Now this is a true statement that I am sure you will agree with ZA.
According to Calvinism “You will be saved or damned for all eternity because you were saved or damned from all eternity.” George Bryson

So according to your religion your preaching has zero effect.
Because the calvinist absolutely elect must have been saved without Jesus; and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.

So it would seem that your false religion has made the whole crucifixion moot of zero usefulness. See what your false religion does to the word of God.

And then you ask why people reject that philosophical teaching.

 

[Zaatar71]

The Doctrines of Grace originated with Jesus. They were built upon by Paul.

That is exactly what most people believe! Do you see the handful of people who suggest Jesus did not teach this?

 

[Silverhair]

The Doctrines of Grace originated with Jesus. They were built upon by Paul.

Now I know for sure you have gone off the rails with your philosophy.

 

[Silverhair]

That is exactly what most people believe! Do you see the handful of people who suggest Jesus did not teach this?

Ya the vast majority of bible believing Christians.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning:
This thread will be closed no sooner than 4 am (Sat 21 Jun) EDT

 

[Zaatar71]

So what is your point Za. That I am not a good calvinist.

The poiny t is you might need some help as you avoid truth for some reason. many of these reasons have been identified already.

I could have told you that as I trust the bible not a religion that has a questionable foundation.

Those pastors who wrote the confession of faith say they trusted the bible. Do you notice that only you and vanm, and one or two others stray from this teaching?

Perhaps you can give a logical answer to this question ZA?

If God has unchangeably determined who will and won’t be saved, then why evangelize the lost?

God has rlrcted those he is going to save for sure. Evangelism is one of the means He has ordained to accomplish that. Cab you see it more clear now?

Aren't you just wasting your time?

Not at all. Obeying God is never a waste of time! Where do you come up with such ideas?

I know you will say you do not know who God has elected but He does and whether you speak to them or not they will be saved, right.

God has ordained the exact means needed to save All He intends to save. That should be obvious.

Now this is a true statement that I am sure you will agree with ZA.
According to Calvinism “You will be saved or damned for all eternity because you were saved or damned from all eternity.” George Bryson

God elects a multitude to be saved, the others are left to their own fleshly ways!
3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. ( g 1Ti 5:21; Mat 25:34; h Eph 1:5-6; i Rom 9:22-23; Jude 4)
Do you see how easily your questions are answered by this Confession of faith!

So according to your religion your preaching has zero effect.

No SH, why do you arrive at such strange conclusions? Are you just joking around?

Because the calvinist absolutely elect must have been saved without Jesus; and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.

This makes no sense at all! What are you saying?

So it would seem that your false religion has made the whole crucifixion moot of zero usefulness. See what your false religion does to the word of God.

And then you ask why people reject that philosophical teaching.

i cannot recognize anything you are speaking of here. Are you okay?

 

[Reynolds]

Now I know for sure you have gone off the rails with your philosophy.

I have known you were off the rails since your arrival here, but seriously, Jesus plainly taught determinism.

 

[Ben1445]

I don't see anywhere in the bible men rejecting Christ because of Calvinist doctrines. Is that in the apocrypha?

No. Jesus is not a Calvinist. I never read Jesus teach or quote Calvinism. Is that Apocryphal?

 

[Ben1445]

Here;

"The whole history of these books (i.e. the Gospels) is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."

Thomas Jefferson

Quite the man to quote in a favorable way. Seemingly he would reject your view as well, the difference is I wouldn't quote a blasphemer of Christ to support my view.

Thank you. I appreciate your time to share what I have not yet seen.
I agree that he might not appreciate my view based on that quote.

I see textual criticism for sure. He surely rejects enough Scripture for me to doubt his beliefs.
Unless I missed something hear, I don’t read blasphemy taking what he said at face value. It does leave room for it, I will grant you.

My goal was not to make him a “champion.” I am having a discussion. I’m not pretending to play a David and Goliath scenario by thinking that I am going to take down Calvinism in on post or vice versa.
I am having a discussion about Bible doctrine. I find that disagreement is a great motivation for deep study because it gives a goal to reach. A defined disagreement provides a framework for great study and conversation.
I still agree with the statement Jefferson made from my point of view. I could not have said it better. I probably disagree with Calvin for different reasons and do have different conclusions than Jefferson based on your provided quote.
You are the first person who has ever plainly given me any kind of real quote that shows what he believed. It has never been a real goal of mine to figure out exactly what dead people believed. I take it in as it comes up. I don’t go looking for it.

 

[Ben1445]

Sorry brother, but as Spurgeon stated, and I see him superior to you in theology, Calvinism is the Gospel message , as its basically Pauline Justification

Spurgeon believed that the gospel was effectual to any sinner.

 

[Silverhair]

The poiny t is you might need some help as you avoid truth for some reason. many of these reasons have been identified already.

That is just you spouting of again. You avoid answering any questions ZA.

You have no foundation for your religion so you try to deflect.

Those pastors who wrote the confession of faith say they trusted the bible. Do you notice that only you and vanm, and one or two others stray from this teaching?

They trust the parts of the bible that their thought would support their religion.

That is a big difference fro actually trusting the bible ZA.

God has rlrcted those he is going to save for sure. Evangelism is one of the means He has ordained to accomplish that. Cab you see it more clear now?

Just your fail divine determinism on display again ZA.

Not at all. Obeying God is never a waste of time! Where do you come up with such ideas?

For the calvinist you are just making sand castles. Your determinism makes the gospel of not use. The sad part is that you do not even realize this.

Those of us that actually believe the word of God will preach the gospel so that those that hear can believe and be saved.

God has ordained the exact means needed to save All He intends to save. That should be obvious.

God has set the condition for salvation. Those that hear and believe the gospel message will be saved.

Calvinism's divine determinism and the pre select group make the preaching of the gospel moot.

That you cannot even see this truth about your failed religion is shocking but not surprising.

God elects a multitude to be saved, the others are left to their own fleshly ways!
3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. ( g 1Ti 5:21; Mat 25:34; h Eph 1:5-6; i Rom 9:22-23; Jude 4)
Do you see how easily your questions are answered by this Confession of faith!

The is funny ZA but also sad. You gladly tour the love of God for His creation on it's head as you run headlong into that false narrative.

But you did show just how willing the authors of the false confession were willing to misuse the word of God to further their calvinist agenda.

No SH, why do you arrive at such strange conclusions? Are you just joking around?

Just telling like it is ZA. That you cannot see this truth just means you are blinded to the truth.

This makes no sense at all! What are you saying?

Do you have a problem understand clear English ZA. Or is it to shocking for your brain to take in?

i cannot recognize anything you are speaking of here. Are you okay?

Of course you can't as that would require that you actually look at the philosophy you follow with clear eyes and an open mind. Which it seems you have neither.

You are so blinded by your allegiance to calvinism that you are not will to actually be honest with yourself or with the truths right before you.

It is sad to see a brother so deluded.

 

[Silverhair]

I have known you were off the rails since your arrival here, but seriously, Jesus plainly taught determinism.

I did not know you were going to try out a comedy routine.

So you have one of those special calvinist bibles I see.

But I can see why you say Jesus taught determinism. God determined that those who freely trust in Him would be saved and Paul taught it.

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

 

[Silverhair]

Calvinist claim to trust the word of God but they do spend a lot of time denying what it clearly says.

Why do they think we should trust their WCF/LBCF over the clear word of God? I have asked in various ways but none that hold that view have provided a good answer.

 

[David Lamb]

Calvinist claim to trust the word of God but they do spend a lot of time denying what it clearly says.

Why do they think we should trust their WCF/LBCF over the clear word of God? I have asked in various ways but none that hold that view have provided a good answer.

But the (we) don't trust the WCF/LBCF over the bible. Everything that is stated in those two confessions of faith is backed up with Scripture references. Now, you might disagree with their interpretation of Scripture, but wou shouldn't say that they trust the confessions above Scripture.

 

[David Lamb]

I did not know you were going to try out a comedy routine.

So you have one of those special calvinist bibles I see.

But I can see why you say Jesus taught determinism. God determined that those who freely trust in Him would be saved and Paul taught it.

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Calvinist believe that, too, that one must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.