Should members give money to their church?

[annsni]

Still, you can't throw out what Paul did. He worked a secular trade, traveled evangelizing, and started new churches, while working his trade. He did it and didn't charge because he didn't want to be a hinderance to the gospel. Something for todays preachers to think about. Some paid preachers are very hard working at their craft, some are downright lazy and look for the easiest way out possible. To answer the question, yes I give to my church, but not all of my offering. I don't see them helping the poor nearly as much as trying to build a bigger and bigger church, so I reserve the rest of my money to send to poor people in need.

Well, then you need to work in your church to see how you all can increase your help to the poor and needy. Expecting someone else to do what you think is right is not the way to work in the body of Christ. I'm sure there are LOTS of things that people think should be done better but since we placed ourselves under the authority of a church, then we need to have the confidence in them.

By withholding a portion of your offering because you feel a church is failing is a big red flag to me.

 

[annsni]

OK - So what I'm seeing is a man who feels that tithing is wrong and because his church teaches it, he feels that he should withhold some of his offering and give it someplace else. And because of that, if the church doesn't have enough money to pay the pastor, he should get a job. So because he teaches tithing (which I do not see in the NT as being tossed out - although it isn't fully continued to be taught), he should get a job.

How about what the early church did and give ALL to the church? I think there is a heart issue here and not a financial or theological issue. I'm happy to give up a bit to further the kingdom. We actually have given up 1/2 of my husband's former 6 figure salary and any chance to remodel the fixer-upper we bought so he could go into the ministry full time. We have kept our sailboat but that was paid off and my FIL has paid for the yearly bills for it so we can continue to have a wonderful way to vacation and relax but that will go in a heartbeat if needed (and it may have to so we can send our children to college). My husband can easily go back into the field he came from and make almost 3X as much as he makes now. But that is not where God wants him.

We are to pay our ministers a living wage and allow them to do the work that God has for them. To shortchange them because we don't agree with a teaching is wrong. If we don't agree with them, find another pastor or find another church. Rebellion is not exactly a good characteristic.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Yes, I think we should give to our place of worship, how much? I give as the Holy Spirit motivates me and to the ministry that teaches me and uses me and where I think I should give and the amount.

And if one is doing what God has lead them to do, I don't believe they have given up anything. Our reward is to come.

 

[JerryL]

OK - So what I'm seeing is a man who feels that tithing is wrong and because his church teaches it, he feels that he should withhold some of his offering and give it someplace else. And because of that, if the church doesn't have enough money to pay the pastor, he should get a job. So because he teaches tithing (which I do not see in the NT as being tossed out - although it isn't fully continued to be taught), he should get a job.

How about what the early church did and give ALL to the church? I think there is a heart issue here and not a financial or theological issue. I'm happy to give up a bit to further the kingdom. We actually have given up 1/2 of my husband's former 6 figure salary and any chance to remodel the fixer-upper we bought so he could go into the ministry full time. We have kept our sailboat but that was paid off and my FIL has paid for the yearly bills for it so we can continue to have a wonderful way to vacation and relax but that will go in a heartbeat if needed (and it may have to so we can send our children to college). My husband can easily go back into the field he came from and make almost 3X as much as he makes now. But that is not where God wants him.

We are to pay our ministers a living wage and allow them to do the work that God has for them. To shortchange them because we don't agree with a teaching is wrong. If we don't agree with them, find another pastor or find another church. Rebellion is not exactly a good characteristic.

What you are seeing is not what I said. I said, the reason I don't give all my offering to my church is because they are more interested in building the building bigger and less about helping the poor. I hold some of my offering and distribute it to people in need that aren't getting it from the church. I said, that some pastors devote their entire life and hours to the ministry, some are just lazy slobs looking for a job where they ONLY stand up on Wednesdays and Sundays and give a 30 minute sermon and if you tried to find them through the week they are nowhere to be found. If the church is a small church and they have extra hours during the week, they could get a job and help the church out.

I think there is a heart issue here and not a financial or theological issue. I'm happy to give up a bit to further the kingdom.

More of the guilt trip coersion.

 

[JerryL]

Well, then you need to work in your church to see how you all can increase your help to the poor and needy. Expecting someone else to do what you think is right is not the way to work in the body of Christ. I'm sure there are LOTS of things that people think should be done better but since we placed ourselves under the authority of a church, then we need to have the confidence in them.

By withholding a portion of your offering because you feel a church is failing is a big red flag to me.

Where does it say I have to give ALL of my offering to the Lord to my local church? Am I not allowed to help the poor on my own? Am I really "withholding" from the Lord?

but since we placed ourselves under the authority of a church

I have never placed myself under the authority of a church. I have placed myself under the authority of my Lord. You sound like your church is akin to the RCC way of doing things.

 

[JerryL]

(which I do not see in the NT as being tossed out - although it isn't fully continued to be taught),

You need to study it a little further then. A good study of Hebrews is just one place. Any of the books that say the law isn't for gentiles is another place to go. Tithing wasn't taught in any of the historic documents for over 300 years of baptist history. It wasn't added until the 1940's to mid 60's into any baptist paper. The early catholic church tried to get it added in the 500's(I think, it's been a couple of years since I studied it)but didn't get it approved until around 777, I think, and that was only for agricultural tithing. It wasn't until around the 900's that food products were added. It was widely accepted around 1200 as money. All this was forced under Government rule to give to the RCC. No mention of tithing by the early christian leaders. Todays church doesn't want to hear the words of the early leaders though. 0% of the early church leaders taught tithing. If you want to teach it, get with me and we will go through a Biblical study of it and keep the emotional tactics out of the equation. Of course, I have only had one pastor(personally) take me up on a complete study/rebuttal of his teaching and after several sessions he said he "didn't have time for this." Of course, he couldn't defend his teaching with true biblical study, he like you, only use emotion to defend your teaching. Several on another board tried, all at once, with no avail. Tithing for christians can't be defended without Bible twisting. I use true Biblical studys of what tithing really is, from a Bible.

 

[annsni]

You need to study it a little further then. A good study of Hebrews is just one place. Any of the books that say the law isn't for gentiles is another place to go. Tithing wasn't taught in any of the historic documents for over 300 years of baptist history. It wasn't added until the 1940's to mid 60's into any baptist paper. The early catholic church tried to get it added in the 500's(I think, it's been a couple of years since I studied it)but didn't get it approved until around 777, I think, and that was only for agricultural tithing. It wasn't until around the 900's that food products were added. It was widely accepted around 1200 as money. All this was forced under Government rule to give to the RCC. No mention of tithing by the early christian leaders. Todays church doesn't want to hear the words of the early leaders though. 0% of the early church leaders taught tithing. If you want to teach it, get with me and we will go through a Biblical study of it and keep the emotional tactics out of the equation. Of course, I have only had one pastor(personally) take me up on a complete study/rebuttal of his teaching and after several sessions he said he "didn't have time for this." Of course, he couldn't defend his teaching with true biblical study, he like you, only use emotion to defend your teaching. Several on another board tried, all at once, with no avail. Tithing for christians can't be defended without Bible twisting. I use true Biblical studys of what tithing really is, from a Bible.

The tithe was pre-law. Might want to study some more. (hint Hebrews 7)

 

[annsni]

Where does it say I have to give ALL of my offering to the Lord to my local church? Am I not allowed to help the poor on my own? Am I really "withholding" from the Lord?

You just said "I don't see them helping the poor nearly as much as trying to build a bigger and bigger church, so I reserve the rest of my money to send to poor people in need." That is withholding.

I have never placed myself under the authority of a church. I have placed myself under the authority of my Lord. You sound like your church is akin to the RCC way of doing things.

When you become a member of a church, you are coming under their authority (as those who will give an accounting for you (hint - another Hebrews passage)), submitting to possible church discipline and committing to their common work. It is not the RC way of doing things. It's the Biblical way.

 

[JerryL]

Again, where does it say I have to give 100% of my offering to my church? I'm not withholding an offering to the Lord by giving some of it to somebody else other than my church.

The tithe was pre-law. Might want to study some more. (hint Hebrews 7)

Yea, he gave a tithe of the spoils of war, a common practice of that time, even among pagan nations. It was an Arab tradition, most likely where Abraham got it. How much of that pre-law tithe came from his own personal stuff? We know he was rich in siver and gold and cattle, but he only tithed other people's stuff and gave the rest to a king of a very ungodly place. Try again. You keep going back to Hebrews of which I pointed you too. Why not look at the connection of Abraham's tithe in how it was eventually connected to the law by the decendants still in his loins. So Abrahams tithe which is clearly connected to the law is abrogated by that same book.

Heb 7:9 And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes,
Heb 7:10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
Heb 7:11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Yea, he gave a tithe of the spoils of war, a common practice of that time, even among pagan nations. It was an Arab tradition, most likely where Abraham got it. How much of that pre-law tithe came from his own personal stuff? We know he was rich in siver and gold and cattle, but he only tithed other people's stuff and gave it to a king of a very ungodly place. Try again. You keep going back to Hebrews of which I pointed you too. Why not look at the connection of Abraham's tithe in how it was eventually connected to the law by the decendants still in his loins. So Abrahams tithe which is clearly connected to the law is abrogated by that same book.

Seems it would be impossible for Abraham to have learned this from the Arabs as Ishmael is recognized as the first Arab.

You can read part of a book on this topic online at: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=Vd5q5qWtMuMC&dq=first+arab+ishmael&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=v50ln_FfH2&sig=xGgaQ7Fu66JOYjkpVCsP4m2_yEE&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPT1,M1


The title of the book is: Ishmael on the Border: Rabbinic Portrayals of the First Arab

 

[JerryL]

Seems it would be impossible for Abraham to have learned this from the Arabs as Ishmael is recognized as the first Arab.

You can read part of a book on this topic online at: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=Vd5q5qWtMuMC&dq=first+arab+ishmael&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=v50ln_FfH2&sig=xGgaQ7Fu66JOYjkpVCsP4m2_yEE&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPT1,M1


The title of the book is: Ishmael on the Border: Rabbinic Portrayals of the First Arab

None the less, it was common practice among many nations at that time to offer tithes of the spoils of war. Abraham was a priest himself, he didn't need Melchizedek to intercede to God for him. He built his own alters to offer to God. Arab or not, he didn't give his own personal property. Only the spoils of war were tithed. He didn't even keep any of the booty he gathered, he gave it back to the king of Sodom. This isn't even close to being able to promote titing for todays church. You all study on it. I will be out of town for two weeks, maybe you can come up with some Bible to back up your beliefs for NT church tithing and I will refute any of your ideas. I'll check back later.
Study Hebrews and how Abraham's tithe was clearly connected to the law that is now abrogated and never was for christian to start with. Paul spent tons of time showing that we weren't under the mosaic law. Crabtownboy, feel free to refute any other part of my quote, not just the Arab part.

Yea, he gave a tithe of the spoils of war, a common practice of that time, even among pagan nations. It was an Arab tradition, most likely where Abraham got it. How much of that pre-law tithe came from his own personal stuff? We know he was rich in siver and gold and cattle, but he only tithed other people's stuff and gave the rest to a king of a very ungodly place. Try again. You keep going back to Hebrews of which I pointed you too. Why not look at the connection of Abraham's tithe in how it was eventually connected to the law by the decendants still in his loins. So Abrahams tithe which is clearly connected to the law is abrogated by that same book.

I edited my original quote because I messed up, and said he gave "it" to a King of an ungodly place. I meant he gave "the rest".
God Bless

 

[Trotter]

I give to my church, and I completely support pay my pastor. Sure, we could make him go out and get another job... and then get whatever is left of him after he gets through with that job. That's not the choice we've made and I am thankful for it.

A pastor, or a man who deserves to be called by that title, is more than a full-time minister. I haven't met any true pastors who only put in 40 hours a week... most put in 60-80 hours.

I know of very few churches who pay their pastors what they should. Our (now former) pastor was paid a wage, but it was less than it could have been since we provided a parsonage. Even if that was added back in it wouldn't have been equal to what he could make in the secular world with all of his degrees. Now that he has retired, he is out even more since the parsonage still belongs to the church.

Christains should give to the work of the Lord, and their local congregation should be the first point of that giving. Say the church is not doing anything to further God's work? You're there, so help it start to do so.

 

[JerryL]

I give to my church, and I completely support pay my pastor. Sure, we could make him go out and get another job... and then get whatever is left of him after he gets through with that job. That's not the choice we've made and I am thankful for it.

A pastor, or a man who deserves to be called by that title, is more than a full-time minister. I haven't met any true pastors who only put in 40 hours a week... most put in 60-80 hours.

I know of very few churches who pay their pastors what they should. Our (now former) pastor was paid a wage, but it was less than it could have been since we provided a parsonage. Even if that was added back in it wouldn't have been equal to what he could make in the secular world with all of his degrees. Now that he has retired, he is out even more since the parsonage still belongs to the church.

Christains should give to the work of the Lord, and their local congregation should be the first point of that giving. Say the church is not doing anything to further God's work? You're there, so help it start to do so.

Our pastor is paid also. They, like most churches, are more interested in a bigger and bigger building with all the bells and whistles.

 

[sag38]

Some folks have no problem sitting in church, enjoying the benefits of the church, and yet have the nerve to hold back on thier giving using reasons like, "the church doesn't give to the poor, or do this or that, like "I" think they should." How sad!

 

[JerryL]

Some folks have no problem sitting in church, enjoying the benefits of the church, and yet have the nerve to hold back on thier giving using reasons like, "the church doesn't give to the poor, or do this or that, like "I" think they should." How sad!

You have no idea how much I give to my church, which is a lot btw. If they were more interested in the poor than building bigger and bigger buildings, they would get more. I use part to help the poor myself. More emotion tatics?

 

[DHK]

Our pastor is paid also. They, like most churches, are more interested in a bigger and bigger building with all the bells and whistles.

Jerry, your profile says that you are a Baptist.
Do you attend a Baptist church? If so, what is its name?
It sounds like you are almost ashamed to be in a Baptist Church, by the tenor of your posts.

 

[annsni]

Our pastor is paid also. They, like most churches, are more interested in a bigger and bigger building with all the bells and whistles.

Our church was interested in building a bigger and better building with all the bells and whistles. Yeah, I know - we should have given the money to the poor and let our children have their Sunday School in the parking lot, the handicapped sit on the lawn (and ignore the law that we need an elevator), allowed all of our staff to work at home or out of their cars (which they did until we opened the new building a month ago).

Oh - but I didn't mention that none of what we built came out of the budget or the regular tithes and offerings. It was a special collection - a special time of praying and giving what God wants us to give. We collected money (with no cake sales, car washes or fund raisers but just as people were led to give) for 2 years before we broke ground because we were going to do the whole project debt free - for cash. We had the grand opening of the new addition 3 years after groundbreaking because we did much of the work ourselves to save money. We did the building, with cash, for less than half of what it should have cost. We were told we couldn't do it but we did.

I guess we should have ignored the needs that we had to minister to those who God was giving us and given the money away instead. Oh wait! We do that too! Hmmm.....

 

[nunatak]

Ann, I judge by your posts you are very enthusiastic about this topic. Do you teach your members to tithe? If so, what is your basis? I don't want to know about your church budget, but I am interested in how you teach your members about missions, specifically, how the church should "send" the ones who go, financially speaking.

 

[annsni]

Ann, I judge by your posts you are very enthusiastic about this topic. Do you teach your members to tithe? If so, what is your basis? I don't want to know about your church budget, but I am interested in how you teach your members about missions, specifically, how the church should "send" the ones who go, financially speaking.

Nope - I don't teach the church members - I'm a woman, remember?

Our church teaches that a tithe was before the law, that men gave their firstfruits to God and that there is blessing in being generous and realizing Who is the source of all we have. It's not our money, house, car, etc. but God's and what we do with it should bless Him.

Our church sends our missionaries with full support. Most of our missionaries are home grown and sent from our own congregation. We don't want them to be having to spend so much time drumming up support - if God called them, it's our responsibility as their church to send them out.

 

[John of Japan]

You have no idea how much I give to my church, which is a lot btw. If they were more interested in the poor than building bigger and bigger buildings, they would get more. I use part to help the poor myself. More emotion tatics?

I just have to ask this since you keep bringing it up. Where in the Bible are you getting that the church is to help all the poor? The primary tasks of the church are to: provide a place for believers to strengthen each other (Heb. 10:24-25), a way for believers to learn to serve God (Eph. 4:11-13, etc.), and fulfill the Great Commission (esp. Luke 24:33-39). But the Bible nowhere teaches that helping the poor is a primary task of the church.

Yes, the church in Acts helped poor believers. That is the very reason they appointed deacons in Acts 6, to lead in helping the believing widows. But the church is to primarily help Christians, not unbelievers (Gal. 6:9-10, Rom. 15:26, 1 Cor. 6:1-2, etc.).

It is the task of individual Christians to help poor unbelievers, not the church. And even then it might not be a spiritual thing to do (1 Cor. 13:3). So don't blame your church for not helping all the poor people. It's not supposed to. That is your task as an individual Christian (James 2:6, Gal. 2:10, etc.). And it is right that you are doing that--just don't expect it of your church.

Furthermore, you know what? Your belief that pastors ought to get out and work instead of being supported by a church just isn't on target. My Dad preached the Gospel for 60 years in small churches that never paid him enough. And even though he often worked outside jobs like house painting, our family was under the "poverty line" from the first time the US government started measuring it, and Dad died poor. You know what I got from my Dad when he died? His precious (to him and me both) ministry books. No money--he didn't have any. So let me tell you what poor people the churches should help: their own pastors!