So what's the difference between Beth Moore and Joyce Meyer?

[LadyEagle]

Okay, then.

 

[youngmom4]

Proverbs 18:21 "Death and life are in the power of the tongue,and those who love it will eat its fruits."

Do you think that we can speak death into our life? That if I say that my neighbor should die that he will? How about me speaking "life" over a dying person. Will they suddenly be restored to full health? No. Our words do not have power to change God's will, to change nature, to even change our circumstances.

I don't think that is what Joyce meant, either. I think she is speaking metaphorically, just as the proverb is. No, we can not literally make our neighbor die by saying that he will, but we are bringing death to our own spirits by violating several commandments: Jesus said if we are angry with someone that is the same as killing them, so I think wishing someone dead or saying they are going to die is much worse. Same thing for the converse statement; I may not restore someone to health simply by saying that they will heal, but if I pray for their good health, that is bringing life to my own spirit by keeping me in communication and relationship with God. Now, I could be wrong, and she could mean it like you're saying, but I just don't think so based on everything I've ever heard her say. :thumbs:

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't think that is what Joyce meant, either. I think she is speaking metaphorically, just as the proverb is. No, we can not literally make our neighbor die by saying that he will, but we are bringing death to our own spirits by violating several commandments: Jesus said if we are angry with someone that is the same as killing them, so I think wishing someone dead or saying they are going to die is much worse. Same thing for the converse statement; I may not restore someone to health simply by saying that they will heal, but if I pray for their good health, that is bringing life to my own spirit by keeping me in communication and relationship with God. Now, I could be wrong, and she could mean it like you're saying, but I just don't think so based on everything I've ever heard her say. :thumbs:

The WOF folks believe that our words have power to create and to kill literally. Meyers is no different.

 

[donnA]

I don't think that is what Joyce meant, either. I think she is speaking metaphorically, just as the proverb is. No, we can not literally make our neighbor die by saying that he will, but we are bringing death to our own spirits by violating several commandments: Jesus said if we are angry with someone that is the same as killing them, so I think wishing someone dead or saying they are going to die is much worse. Same thing for the converse statement; I may not restore someone to health simply by saying that they will heal, but if I pray for their good health, that is bringing life to my own spirit by keeping me in communication and relationship with God. Now, I could be wrong, and she could mean it like you're saying, but I just don't think so based on everything I've ever heard her say. :thumbs:

If you actually knew what the word of faith false teachers really taught you'd know she was serious about the power of words to create, give life, or bring trgedy simply by misspeaking.

 

[gb93433]

I wasn't aware Beth taught the prosperity doctrine. I do know she teaches and endorses the heretical contemplative prayer founded in eastern mysticism and filtered by the catholic church.

I can remember when I was a pastor in the SBC and some of the local SBC churches were promoting it. The prayer of Jabez was promoted at the state level.

 

[LadyEagle]

Yep. And wasn't that promoted by Lifeway? Depends on whose ox is in the ditch, as they say.....:laugh:

 

[superwoman8977]

I can remember when I was a pastor in the SBC and some of the local SBC churches were promoting it. The prayer of Jabez was promoted at the state level.

Okay I have to ask what is wrong with praying the Prayer of Jabez? I have prayed it for the last probably 4 years every morning. It keeps me going knowing that one day it will come to fruition.

 

[dan e.]

Okay I have to ask what is wrong with praying the Prayer of Jabez? I have prayed it for the last probably 4 years every morning. It keeps me going knowing that one day it will come to fruition.

How do you know it will come to fruition? Or, maybe I should ask, how do you expect it to come to fruition?

 

[annsni]

I know it's off topic but it was brought up - we did the Prayer of Jabez at our church and even named our building project "Project Jabez". It's not because we would be "enlarging our territory" by building a new building but by building this new building, we are asking God to enlarge our sphere of influence in the community. We actually have our building dedication this weekend.

But none of the Prayer of Jabez has been for physical wealth or blessing in our teaching.

 

[superwoman8977]

I agree. But I have never heard any of those things from her from watching her program. And the material furnished here is several years old.

But two questions: Do we not believe death and life are in the power of the tongue? Do we not believe there is a law of sowing and reaping?

Well I believe there is power in the tongue and as for the sowing and reaping part it leads me to my favorite verse one I meditate on all the time Psalm 125:6---Though I may sow my seeds with seeds of sorrow I will reap with songs of Joy!

 

[gb93433]

Okay I have to ask what is wrong with praying the Prayer of Jabez? I have prayed it for the last probably 4 years every morning. It keeps me going knowing that one day it will come to fruition.

Mt. 6:7-15, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. "Pray, then, in this way: `Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. `Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. `Give us this day our daily bread. `And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. `And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.' "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

 

[papagiorgio200]

Beth Moore Guilty by Her Own Writing and Association

Usually, instead of figuring out what it is, and figuring out what it isn't, here is the type of response you get from alarmers:



Revmitchell, no need to be offended. I made that remark because from talking with you a lot in various threads, I expected some direct evidence from Beth Moore's mouth, not an incredibly biased site that misquotes, and misrepresents these people.

I realize I am jumping in late... I apologize, and this isn't just a response to DanE, but I merely use his prodding as an example for the set of challenges to the idea that Beth Moore is not leaning towards a pagan point of view. In the DVD, Be Still, the main "character" is Richard Foster. Richard Foster is one the main proponents of a newer meditation form that is creeping into the Evangelical/Reformed/Baptist arena. How can I call it pagan? simple, and I quote Foster:

After awhile there is a deep yearning within to go into the upper regions beyond the clouds. In your imagination allow your spiritual body, shining with light, to rise out of your physical body. Look back so that you can see yourself lying in the grass and reassure your body that you will return momentarily. Imagine your spiritual self, alive and vibrant, rising up through the clouds and into the stratosphere. Observe your physical body, the knoll, and the forest shrink as you leave the earth. Go deeper and deeper into outer space until there is nothing except the warm presence of the eternal Creator. Rest in His presence.

Richard Foster, Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth (New York, NY: Harper & Row, 1978), 27 (emphasis added).

We of the New Age can risk going against the tide. Let us with abandon relish the fantasy games of children.

Richard Foster, Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth (New York, NY: Harper & Row, 1978), 170 (emphasis added but capitalization in the original).

I have in-depth definitions of what "astral projection" is if you follow the links in the quotes. So anything to do with such a person makes me suspect, as, I am suppose to test all things and hold fast to that which is good. Another person Moore is close to is David G. Benner, who, is the reason I first got involved in this topic of study. I was taking my last class at seminary and it was an integrative Bible Counseling class, and Benner was on the materials list. As I make a habit of, most authors recommended or on the required reading list I will get most of what they write and reference those works as well. This is just one troubling resource I found out in the ether called the internet as reading through his Papa Prayer raised some red-flags in my mind:

“[the] spiritual climate is ripe... [for]... Jesus seekers across the world are being prepared to abandon the old way of the written code for the new way of the Spirit. Paul told us long ago we've been freed by the gospel to live a new way, but we've not known what it is or how to do it.”

David G. Benner, Sacred Companions: The Gift of Spiritual Friendship & Direction (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2002), 9.

Beth has an unhealthy view of generational sin, almost identical to the "deliverance" ministry of Neil Anderson. One site builds their case against Beth this way:

Moore builds her case for contemplative in her frequent references to Brennan Manning in her book, suggesting that his contribution to "our generation of believers may be a gift without parallel" (p. 72). This is indeed a troubling statement made by a Christian leader who so many women look to for direction and instruction in their spiritual lives. Many of those women, in reading Moore's comments about Manning and her quoting of him in the book may turn to the writings of Manning for further insights. When they do, they will find that Manning is a devout admirer of Beatrice Bruteau of The School for Contemplation.

Bruteau believes that God lives in all creation, stating: "We have realized ourselves as the Self that says only I AM, with no predicate following, not "I am a this" or "I have that quality." Only unlimited, absolute I AM.

(Lighthouse Trails)

Take note that due to many ideas infiltrating my church caused me to leave ("me" defined: my kids grew up there, my wife and I had our marriage saved there... we loved our church and leaving it was hard). I had a new pastor to our church's staff discuss my seminary class with me, to my surprise, he had been involved in this "emergent" movement for over a decade. He knew I was a reader so he dropped off an armfull of books -- which caused me to buy about thirty books by these authors, I read them, then I bought the books critical of them. This is the ideas gleened from these books dropped off to me by a pastor; and keep in mind that Beth Moore is intimately involved with many of them:

1. that the first three miracles in John were inserted by writers to “woo in pagans,” as they are themselves adopted from pagan stories (something you referred to as an “interesting theory”);
2. the Virgin Birth was also a deep seated fear of sexuality and not really a miracle;
3. books that teach that penal substitution as a vile doctrine;
4. that Hell is not a place for persons to be placed after a future judgment, and that Hell is actually here now and that we must bring in God’s Kingdom (separate from that future judgment);
5. these books say we do not have the Gospel right yet;
6. they teach that travelling to Buddhist temples and practicing meditative techniques in these temples is Christian;
7. they show that many of the practices rejected by the Reformers are in fact useful to the Christian;
8. they show that Yoga can make one closer to God and to realize and experience the “divine;”
9. they teach that the doctrines of the Trinity, nature of Christ, nature of Scripture, and the nature of marriage are “still on the table,” doctrinally;
10. teach that Paul was really communicating Platonism and not bringing us Scripture;
11. on-and-on.

While I am sure many here can pick apart each book or author/quote and make the conversation die the death of a thousand qualifications (Ravi Zacharias) -- taken as a whole, this entire movement is a threat to the heart-and-soul of the Christian faith, and may be a great falling away. The final or last straw that caused me to leave my church of almost 12-years was the use of a book with the men's college group. I have many audio resources linked off of my critique of this book... so plan on taking some time with this if you are serious about this topic. As you read my critique, keep in mind the following idea from Robert Culver:

There are several economic theories to explain the causes of what Christians call temptation and resulting sin. Most of these have been influenced by Marxist views of mankind as essentially economic beings. Struggle between economic classes is as near as Marxism comes to a doctrine of sin. I leave to the department of Apologetics a thorough canvass of the several Marxist, essentially anti-Christian theories. Chief among them is liberation theology. Though it was primarily a movement among post-Vatican II Roman Catholics, students in undergraduate university classes in sociology met much of the same thought many long years ago when the now generally despised Stalin was still darling of many professors and Chairman Mao was soon to appear.

Robert Duncan Culver, Systematic Theology: Biblical and Historical (Ross-shire, Scotland: Christian Focus Publications, 2005), 368.

God Bless and Much Thought [the two go well together].