Spirit or Ghost?

[JD731]

Jesus said this well before Paul went to the Gentiles.
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Paul brought Scripture with him. Sure, he didn’t bring what wasn’t written. But there was still Scripture and it was available in every synagogue where he went. He also brought it with him.

2 Timothy 4:13
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

The gentiles were also not far away from those Scriptures.

Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

Faith cometh by hearing (the preaching) and hearing by the Word of God (Scripture)

The Word of God is the foundation, not the preaching.

Ben, this post is not intended to be unkind but to express my wonder and awe at the lack of reasoning and logic of those with the Calvinist mindset and the ignorance that is presented here every day. You are no more guilty than your colleagues of diminishing the scriptures by not rightly dividing them, but likewise, you are no less guilty. Jesus said why he came to Israel when he did.

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.(the mysteries were not written there except they were hidden in types and similitudes)
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Opening their understanding is revelation.

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world (aion = age) unto our glory:

What is the wisdom of God? What is the mystery? Are we told? Can we know? Before I answer that I have a couple observations.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them (the mysteries) unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

This is either true or false. You either believe it or you don't. An unsaved man cannot know these mysteries because he does not have a divine teacher. Mr 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. I have noted that the parables Jesus spoke and are now written are not easier for natural men today to understand than when they were first spoken.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

How does he teach some and not others?
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There must be much comparison of words, the consistency of which is lost with your hundreds of translations in a single language.

I will quick say the gospel is not a mystery but is so simple a child can understand it and some can even preach it. Mt 21:16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

So, here is the mystery of God which is the focus of 1 Cor 2 defined in a single verse. It is stated so clearly that no no one should miss it. It is in the context of the explanation of the mystery of Christ, the theme of the letter to the Ephesians.

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Don't miss this. The church, the body of Christ, makes known to heavenly beings the wisdom of God and they can observe it. Understand what they saw. God was making a trinitarian image of himself by three distinct entities becoming one body of Christ, who is the head. The Jews who believed, the gentiles who believed, and the Holy Ghost who dwells in the body as a temple. See Eph 3:6

It was not a mystery that God had purposed to save gentiles through his seed. We learn that in the Abrahamic covenant. The OT scriptures say nothing about God purposing to create a new man in this age so the mystery is that Jews and gentiles would be separate in the body bur equally sons of God and as one.

Here are some verses to prove that God had always planned on making a way for the gentiles to be saved. So that was not the mystery or it would not be written in the OT scriptures. This is just plain logic.

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob i.e. the Abrahamic Covenant):
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy (not promises but mercy); as it is written, For this cause (the cause of being glorified - see Re 4:11 in the KJV) I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people (Israel).
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people (Israel).
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

According to God, preaching of the cross is foolishness but the words of God are foolishness to the unwashed.

 

[Ben1445]

Ben, this post is not intended to be unkind but to express my wonder and awe at the lack of reasoning and logic of those with the Calvinist mindset and the ignorance that is presented here every day.

You think because I disagreed with what you said that I am a Calvinist? If not, I don't follow your logic. I merely pointed out the error in your statement here:

This means gentiles were being saved by hearing the preacher preach the gospel long before they had any scripture. Paul did not write his first letter until 49 AD (he was saved in 37/38 AD).

by showing that the Scriptures were not only there and were available, they were used.

And faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As you, yourself say,

This is either true or false. You either believe it or you don't.

Do you Believe Romans 10:17?
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You are no more guilty than your colleagues of diminishing the scriptures by not rightly dividing them, but likewise, you are no less guilty. Jesus said why he came to Israel when he did.

You, apparently, are taking what I said and applying it to what I was not talking about. From my point of view, this is to avoid your having to say that you were wrong and Scripture was used in the conversion of the gentiles, and that the Bible places "the Word of God" as the origination of helping people to be saved.

You accuse me of not using Scripture rightly, but you never addressed any Scripture I quoted and explained what I said wrong.

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.(the mysteries were not written there except they were hidden in types and similitudes)
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Opening their understanding is revelation.

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world (aion = age) unto our glory:

What is the wisdom of God? What is the mystery? Are we told? Can we know? Before I answer that I have a couple observations.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them (the mysteries) unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

This is either true or false. You either believe it or you don't. An unsaved man cannot know these mysteries because he does not have a divine teacher. Mr 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. I have noted that the parables Jesus spoke and are now written are not easier for natural men today to understand than when they were first spoken.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

How does he teach some and not others?
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There must be much comparison of words, the consistency of which is lost with your hundreds of translations in a single language.

I will quick say the gospel is not a mystery but is so simple a child can understand it and some can even preach it. Mt 21:16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

So, here is the mystery of God which is the focus of 1 Cor 2 defined in a single verse. It is stated so clearly that no no one should miss it. It is in the context of the explanation of the mystery of Christ, the theme of the letter to the Ephesians.

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Don't miss this. The church, the body of Christ, makes known to heavenly beings the wisdom of God and they can observe it. Understand what they saw. God was making a trinitarian image of himself by three distinct entities becoming one body of Christ, who is the head. The Jews who believed, the gentiles who believed, and the Holy Ghost who dwells in the body as a temple. See Eph 3:6

It was not a mystery that God had purposed to save gentiles through his seed. We learn that in the Abrahamic covenant. The OT scriptures say nothing about God purposing to create a new man in this age so the mystery is that Jews and gentiles would be separate in the body bur equally sons of God and as one.

Here are some verses to prove that God had always planned on making a way for the gentiles to be saved. So that was not the mystery or it would not be written in the OT scriptures. This is just plain logic.

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob i.e. the Abrahamic Covenant):
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy (not promises but mercy); as it is written, For this cause (the cause of being glorified - see Re 4:11 in the KJV) I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people (Israel).
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people (Israel).
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

According to God, preaching of the cross is foolishness but the words of God are foolishness to the unwashed.

None of this has anything to do with whether or not there was Scripture available to the Gentiles that believed.
I also showed that there was Scripture available to the Gentiles from Scripture. This is the only thing that I was saying.
If you would care to tell me why any of those things I said, specifically are wrong, I'll listen.
If you are embarrassed and trying to save face because you said something that is not true, don't accuse me of twisting Scripture.
I hope this is, instead, a case you misunderstanding what I said.

 

[JD731]

You think because I disagreed with what you said that I am a Calvinist? If not, I don't follow your logic. I merely pointed out the error in your statement here:

by showing that the Scriptures were not only there and were available, they were used.

And faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As you, yourself say,

Whether you are a Calvinist or not, the error is the same. The word of God does not always refer to scripture. I could show examples , but later maybe.

Do you Believe Romans 10:17?
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I believe Rom 10:17 has a historical and ethnic and doctrinal and prophetical context, none of which many commentators have considered. This epistle to the Romans was written in 58 AD, a full 28 years after Jesus rose from the dead. Many things had transpired concerning the Jews of Jerusalem and Judaea during the first 7 years after the resurrection. The Jews had rejected their Messiah and savior and King nationally. According to the prophet, Jesus, during the last week of his life with his people Israel before they crucified him he said this in a parable. Bare with me here; This parable will cover the two thousand years known as the church age and beginning with the 7 year ministry that we read about in Acts 1-7 to Jerusalem and Judah. I am going to quote it because if I don't you will not read it.

46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
Mt 22:1 ¶ And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

This is Mark 16:15-16 and the servants are the apostles.

What did he do?

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden (that would be the Samaritans who represent the 10 tribes, see John 4), Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies (in 70 AD), and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city (Jerusalem).

You will notice if you read the Jewish epistles, Hebrews thru Jude, that church doctrine is not what their epistles are concerned with, but the revelation, the return of Jesus Christ and their kingdom on the earth.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, (not many Christians understand this or believes that in 70 AD the wedding was ready and a right response from those who were bidden would have ensured that it would have occurred at that time) but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Three realities are now present beginning in 70 AD
1)The wedding was delayed. Why? the house must be filled first (Lk 14 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in). This would take time.
2) The Nation dispersed into the gentile nations and covenants unfulfilled, the Jews are reckoned by God as gentiles, and the bride at this point takes on a gentile personality. It will be a gentile bride simply because all who make it up from this time are gentiles, even if one is an ethnic Jew.
3) The Jewish nation, the withered fig tree, and also the King, Jesus, are separated from the land during the time that the guests are gathered from among the gentiles by the gospel preachers. I don't know if anyone reading this can see the incredible wisdom of God of preparing his people for salvation by making them as gentiles and saving them as gentiles, one by one, while the nation is considered dead and buried, and awaiting resurrection and the Spirit. What love the Father has for Israel. It is mind-blowing.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

There are true and false believers and they must be separated. One must be born again to be in that wedding.

The moral of the story is that context is always our friend and right division of the truth is a must. All scripture is given to us but all scripture is not to us. It is best to find out which is and honor it.

 

[Ben1445]

Whether you are a Calvinist or not, the error is the same. The word of God does not always refer to scripture. I could show examples , but later maybe.

I believe Rom 10:17 has a historical and ethnic and doctrinal and prophetical context, none of which many commentators have considered. This epistle to the Romans was written in 58 AD, a full 28 years after Jesus rose from the dead. Many things had transpired concerning the Jews of Jerusalem and Judaea during the first 7 years after the resurrection. The Jews had rejected their Messiah and savior and King nationally. According to the prophet, Jesus, during the last week of his life with his people Israel before they crucified him he said this in a parable. Bare with me here; This parable will cover the two thousand years known as the church age and beginning with the 7 year ministry that we read about in Acts 1-7 to Jerusalem and Judah. I am going to quote it because if I don't you will not read it.

46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
Mt 22:1 ¶ And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

This is Mark 16:15-16 and the servants are the apostles.

What did he do?

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden (that would be the Samaritans who represent the 10 tribes, see John 4), Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies (in 70 AD), and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city (Jerusalem).

You will notice if you read the Jewish epistles, Hebrews thru Jude, that church doctrine is not what their epistles are concerned with, but the revelation, the return of Jesus Christ and their kingdom on the earth.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, (not many Christians understand this or believes that in 70 AD the wedding was ready and a right response from those who were bidden would have ensured that it would have occurred at that time) but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Three realities are now present beginning in 70 AD
1)The wedding was delayed. Why? the house must be filled first (Lk 14 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in). This would take time.
2) The Nation dispersed into the gentile nations and covenants unfulfilled, the Jews are reckoned by God as gentiles, and the bride at this point takes on a gentile personality. It will be a gentile bride simply because all who make it up from this time are gentiles, even if one is an ethnic Jew.
3) The Jewish nation, the withered fig tree, and also the King, Jesus, are separated from the land during the time that the guests are gathered from among the gentiles by the gospel preachers. I don't know if anyone reading this can see the incredible wisdom of God of preparing his people for salvation by making them as gentiles and saving them as gentiles, one by one, while the nation is considered dead and buried, and awaiting resurrection and the Spirit. What love the Father has for Israel. It is mind-blowing.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

There are true and false believers and they must be separated. One must be born again to be in that wedding.

The moral of the story is that context is always our friend and right division of the truth is a must. All scripture is given to us but all scripture is not to us. It is best to find out which is and honor it.

This doesn’t change the fact that Scripture was used in the conversion of the Gentiles. I am not answering your whole thread, only the one point.
You were wrong when you said this.

This means gentiles were being saved by hearing the preacher preach the gospel long before they had any scripture.

You have not addressed this problem.
You have told me about everything else.
I am not talking about anything else but this one statement that you made. It was inaccurate. I gave you Scripture that shows that Scripture was used in reaching the Gentiles.
Do you still stand by this statement that you made, or do you see that the Gentiles were taught out of Scripture?

 

[JD731]

This doesn’t change the fact that Scripture was used in the conversion of the Gentiles. I am not answering your whole thread, only the one point.
You were wrong when you said this.

You have not addressed this problem.
You have told me about everything else.
I am not talking about anything else but this one statement that you made. It was inaccurate. I gave you Scripture that shows that Scripture was used in reaching the Gentiles.
Do you still stand by this statement that you made, or do you see that the Gentiles were taught out of Scripture?

It is a problem for you, not me, and I have tried to explain to you how the scriptures, when you read them, have context.

Yes! I stand by my statement. The gospel is the power (authority) of God unto salvation to every one who believes it. The saving gospel (good news, glad tidings) is not restricted to a book. Good grief, man, God does not have men write scripture in a national language and send it to nations who have never heard the gospel, he sends men who have his burden for them to preach the gospel to them in their language so they can understand. The scripture in the language of the missionary is the authority for him but the gospel he preaches is the authority of God to the hearer.

I did not make this up. It is in the scriptures. I learned it from the KJV after I was saved. There is no precedent of God sending the written word to the unwashed before he sent the spoken word. Our resident missionary, @John of Japan, is only now publishing a Japanese Bible after spending a lifetime of personally preaching the truths he had learned and been assured of. They need the scriptures to understand the mysteries of God and his "deep things."

I am not arguing against your unscriptural ideas as much as I am arguing for mine, which I know are scriptural. Written scriptures are for saved people. I do not understand your struggle with the simplest of truth and a Bible full of evidences of this truth..

Paul, after he wrote his letters, did not mail them to the cities where he had preached but to the churches that had been established in the cities where he had preached. They were the only people in the cities who would benefit.

 

[Ben1445]

It is a problem for you, not me, and I have tried to explain to you how the scriptures, when you read them, have context.

Yes! I stand by my statement. The gospel is the power (authority) of God unto salvation to every one who believes it. The saving gospel (good news, glad tidings) is not restricted to a book. Good grief, man, God does not have men write scripture in a national language and send it to nations who have never heard the gospel, he sends men who have his burden for them to preach the gospel to them in their language so they can understand. The scripture in the language of the missionary is the authority for him but the gospel he preaches is the authority of God to the hearer.

I did not make this up. It is in the scriptures. I learned it from the KJV after I was saved. There is no precedent of God sending the written word to the unwashed before he sent the spoken word. Our resident missionary, @John of Japan, is only now publishing a Japanese Bible after spending a lifetime of personally preaching the truths he had learned and been assured of. They need the scriptures to understand the mysteries of God and his "deep things."

I am not arguing against your unscriptural ideas as much as I am arguing for mine, which I know are scriptural. Written scriptures are for saved people. I do not understand your struggle with the simplest of truth and a Bible full of evidences of this truth..

Paul, after he wrote his letters, did not mail them to the cities where he had preached but to the churches that had been established in the cities where he had preached. They were the only people in the cities who would benefit.

Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

So the Scriptures that Paul reasoned out of, opening and alleging out of, were not the OT Scriptures? They were. Try finding a synagogue with a New Testament today. No chance of it then. You, yourself have said that few of the NT Scriptures were written anyway.
Are these Greeks that believed after hearing the Scripture preached, Jewish Greeks? No such description is intended. Yet still, these greek Gentiles believe after hearing the OT Scripture.
Ro 3:1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Ro 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

They were given it to share it, not have it exclusively. Surely you don't think we should remove all the Ten Commandments that are posted in schools and courtrooms across the country because they are only for the Jews?

Ac 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

These would be gentiles who were following the OT Scripture and were just witnessed to using the OT Scripture. They were not Jews by the very definition of their description.

I didn't make this up. It is in the Scriptures.
God's Word is the authority for faith and practice. Most Baptists will come right out and say this. Do you only carry a NT because the OT is for the Jews? Or do you consider the OT to be Scripture just like the NT.
Can you not take the OT and lead someone to Christ without the NT?
That was what happened in Acts 13 with the Greeks.

 

[JesusFan]

Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

So the Scriptures that Paul reasoned out of, opening and alleging out of, were not the OT Scriptures? They were. Try finding a synagogue with a New Testament today. No chance of it then. You, yourself have said that few of the NT Scriptures were written anyway.
Are these Greeks that believed after hearing the Scripture preached, Jewish Greeks? No such description is intended. Yet still, these greek Gentiles believe after hearing the OT Scripture.
Ro 3:1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Ro 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

They were given it to share it, not have it exclusively. Surely you don't think we should remove all the Ten Commandments that are posted in schools and courtrooms across the country because they are only for the Jews?

Ac 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

These would be gentiles who were following the OT Scripture and were just witnessed to using the OT Scripture. They were not Jews by the very definition of their description.

I didn't make this up. It is in the Scriptures.
God's Word is the authority for faith and practice. Most Baptists will come right out and say this. Do you only carry a NT because the OT is for the Jews? Or do you consider the OT to be Scripture just like the NT.
Can you not take the OT and lead someone to Christ without the NT?
That was what happened in Acts 13 with the Greeks.

The Holy Spirit did not inspire just the NT, as He inspired all 66 canonized books, and ALL are profitable to read and study and use

 

[Ben1445]

The Holy Spirit did not inspire just the NT, as He inspired all 66 canonized books, and ALL are profitable to read and study and use

I agree. JD731 seems to believe that the gentiles were saved without the help of Scripture. I have shown him where it was used but he seems to still disagree.

 

[John of Japan]

We've gotten far away from the OP, but hey, we're having fun, aren't we?

I'm reading A Romance of Song and Soul Winning, the biography of Charles Alexander, by Helen Alexander and J. Kennedy MacLean. Alexander was the song leader for J. Wilbur Chapman and the founder of the Pocket Testament League. To receive a nice leather bound NT, the person would have to promise to carry it with them and read it every day. In the book it gives many illustrations of people saved through the New Testament. Here is just one of many: "A minister told me his daughter was employed in another great motor-car factory. The foreman in her department sued such bad and insulting language that she reported the matter to higher officials. Recently the girls noticed a great change in the man. They could not understand it until one of them said, 'Why don't you know? He carries a Pocket Testament.' That was sufficient explanation" (p. 250).

In another case, Alexander met a saved policeman and asked for his testimony. He took a small book from his pocket and said, "'It was this Testament, sir, given me a month ago.' he said...and he had read himself into the kingdom" (p. 134).

The Word of God is essential for evangelism.

 

[JD731]

We've gotten far away from the OP, but hey, we're having fun, aren't we?

I'm reading A Romance of Song and Soul Winning, the biography of Charles Alexander, by Helen Alexander and J. Kennedy MacLean. Alexander was the song leader for J. Wilbur Chapman and the founder of the Pocket Testament League. To receive a nice leather bound NT, the person would have to promise to carry it with them and read it every day. In the book it gives many illustrations of people saved through the New Testament. Here is just one of many: "A minister told me his daughter was employed in another great motor-car factory. The foreman in her department sued such bad and insulting language that she reported the matter to higher officials. Recently the girls noticed a great change in the man. They could not understand it until one of them said, 'Why don't you know? He carries a Pocket Testament.' That was sufficient explanation" (p. 250).

In another case, Alexander met a saved policeman and asked for his testimony. He took a small book from his pocket and said, "'It was this Testament, sir, given me a month ago.' he said...and he had read himself into the kingdom" (p. 134).

The Word of God is essential for evangelism.

No gentiles were saved as the NT defines being saved before the episode between Peter and Cornelius and his house in Acts 10, which took place in 40 AD. I am following that definition in my posts. I am not sure all on this board will agree with the definition.

In Acts 10 Cornelius, a Roman Centurion Soldier was praying to be saved. Following is how the scriptures presents him.

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people (that would be the Jews), and prayed to God alway.

The reason he was not saved is not told us in this chapter directly but we know if we are paying attention to words that the door of faith has not been opened to the gentiles BUT this is the very time and is a record of the events that led to the door of faith being opened and is what this chapter is all about.

I did not make up this idea of the open door of faith. It happened for Israel in Acts 2 with the same man, Peter, being the instrument of God's grace. There is much about this subject but for now read these verses and context;

Ac 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago (in Acts 10) God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Now was it coincidence or spur of the moment thinking that God chose Peter to open the door of faith to first Israel, then later to the gentiles? I trow not!

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

There is a time coming in the future when this door will be shut.

Back to Acts 10
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

So what resources did God have available? He had an angel that could tell him what he oughtest to do and he had a complete OT but God said "send for a man" and he will tell you what you ought to do. Send for the man who has the key.

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Now I am going to quote the ending verses for the full impact of my point;

33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all):
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

In his answer to the Jews in Jerusalem concerning going in to gentiles, Peter said this was salvation. In this answer we have a biblical definition of Bible salvation; What did Peter say?

Ac 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

The before and after the opening of the door of Faith to the gentiles;

19 ¶ Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

There are no Bible verses quoted to Cornelius and his house.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I am making a defense of my stated position from the scriptures. There were no NT scriptures penned for several years after Acts 10 yet many gentiles were saved and churches started. There was a church in Antioch Syria but they were all Jews in it at that time.

 

[Ben1445]

34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

De 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
2Ch 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
Job 34:19 How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Ps 25:10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all):

Ps 72:2 ¶ He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
Ps 72:3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
Ps 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
Ps 72:5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
Ps 72:6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
Ps 72:7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
Ps 72:8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
Ps 72:9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

Isa 52:7 ¶ How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Ec 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

I won't quote all the prophets, but Peter did mention them and since Cornelius was praying to God and not Mars, I presume he knew the Scriptures being alluded to. Peter certainly recognized that he knew the prophets or he would not have mentioned them.
Ac 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
I would assume that the fear of the Lord that Cornelius had came from Scripture.

the prophets...
Isa. 9:6; 52:7; 53:5, Isa. 53:6; 59:20; Jer. 31:34; Da. 9:24; Mic. 7:18, etc.; and Zec. 13:1 to name a few.

remission of sins...
Ps 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

While I grant you that there was no quotation of Scripture from any modern versions, there are close enough references to Scripture that I disagree that there was no Scripture involved. There was definitely Scripture involved as Peter mentions the Prophets. He was not referring to anyone Cornelius knew. He was talking about the OT Scripture Cornelius knew.

I am making a defense of my stated position from the scriptures. There were no NT scriptures penned for several years after Acts 10 yet many gentiles were saved and churches started. There was a church in Antioch Syria but they were all Jews in it at that time.

NT Scripture was not quoted. I agree with you there. OT Scripture was definitely part of the conversation.


2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

When this letter was written to Timothy, Paul was referring to the OT. I don't think he meant the NT letters he was currently writing. The Scriptures that Timothy knew as a child were not the NT books that had not been written.

It is the height of frustration for me to hear that NT Christians don't need the OT. Timothy was a NT Christian being told to know the OT Scripture which was "able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

I know that you did not say that we don't need the OT.
The statement I had problems with was the one that sounded like, "the early church preachers didn't use the OT Scriptures."

I see we are merging into NT being singled out versus all Scripture or OT Scripture that was available.

Scripture is essential to salvation.
"thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation"