The Necessity of Special Creation

[DHK]

Already expounded on it. You did not accept it... as usual.

Conceived in that verse says nothing of Mary's ovum. Scripture says the conception was of the Holy Ghost. Mary's ovum was not used else it would have been conceived of her and the Holy Ghost.

Then what does conception mean if it excludes Mary's ovum? What was conceived? You have given no clear answer to that yet.
You are right; it doesn't say ovum.
But it doesn't say zygote, embryo, of fetus either. What would you expect? It is not a biology book!! Conception takes place with an ovum, and the Holy Spirit does the rest miraculously.

'for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost'

What is "that"? "That which is conceived in her" What is "that"? It is an ovum.
If it is not then what is it?
If it is a fetus then is Christ missing two months of his humanity before birth? His humanity is not complete then. The Bible teaches that he is completely man and completely God--the God-man.

Clear as day here. The Holy Ghost did all that was needed, provided all that was needed, and spoke all that was needed.

Then you deny his humanity completely. That is a heresy.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The ovum was conceived?

DHK, that is what I have been saying all along. It was not Mary's ovum that was used at all. God provided everything.

Now you are Saying that she conceived the ovum of the Holy Ghost.

Thank you for finally understanding that it was not her ovum.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You sure like to accuse people of heresy a lot.

Scripture declares it was all of God, that is what I have been saying all along. I have not been speaking heresy.

I am pointing to God all the way on this subject. You are directing people to God and Mary.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I am not denying His humanity at all. I have attested that God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. If that is not humanity, I don't know what is?

 

[donnA]

Of course not - but it shows the difference between giving birth to something and being the blood parent of them.

God was clear. He provided a body for Christ through the conception in the womb of Mary. Conception means the fertilizing of an egg to begin to grow. No I don't think God put his sperm in Mary but He did it in whatever way He decided to do it. But it's clear that Jesus was of the lineage of David - lineage being blood lines.

If as you say, Jesus had Mary's blood, then He had the sin nature and can not be the Savior, as He would need one Himself.

 

[Linda64]

'for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost'

What is "that"? "That which is conceived in her" What is "that"? It is an ovum.

I have a question:

How does a woman conceive an ovum? That's something new to me...speaking from a woman's point of view.

 

[donnA]

You can't understand English either?
Just expound the verse. Here it is again:

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

our mods need to be less abusive.

 

[donnA]

I have a question:

How does a woman conceive an ovum? That's something new to me...speaking from a woman's point of view.

Your quite right, someone doesn't know as much as they like to think about the female body.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

As I stated... It was all God. He provided it all.

DHK's statement that 'that which was conceived' was an ovum goes against what he has been arguing against all along. For, if the ovum was conceived of the Holy Ghost, then Mary received it of Him, it was not hers.

 

[Linda64]

Your quite right, someone doesn't know as much as they like to think about the female body.

:thumbs: I've never conceived an ovum and I've been pregnant 4 times...but hey, I'm not the virgin Mary either.

 

[donnA]

:thumbs: I've never conceived an ovum and I've been pregnant 4 times...but hey, I'm not the virgin Mary either.

I conceived twice and they were both boys, no ovums.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I conceived twice and they were both boys, no ovums.

I taught a semester of Biology at Christopher Newport College back in the 80's. None of my books said the ovum was conceived.

But, hey... the times, they are a changin'.

 

[Linda64]

I conceived twice and they were both boys, no ovums.

No ovums here either :laugh: Two boys and 2 miscarriages.

 

[Eliyahu]

I understand SFIC. God is incapable of producing a body from an egg so He had to go ahead and make a whole new one. Have you read Psalm 139?

God can produce a body only from an egg alone,

1) but would He use the egg of a sinner?

2) it iscontradictory to the Truth : Word became Flesh, because Flesh( ovum) became Flesh ( embryo)

3) Moreover, this is against the nature of God who does not rely on human contribution
Read Ex 20

25And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

Do you understand the meaning of this verse?

No human efforts are needed for the sacrifice!
So the stone for the Altar was very simple. Priests didn't have to make any masonry work unto the stone.

For the redemption work, God prepared everything, and the body was prepared by the Holy Spirit, and the parts of any sinner's body shouldn't be used.

Jesus was a sinless person. How come He could come in the flesh of a sinner?

 

[Eliyahu]

It is absolutely absurd if anyone claim that Matthew 1:20 supports a certain fertilization between Ovum of Mary and the Holy Spirit.

The verse of KJV and many other English Translation should be updated as it contains misunderstandings.

Genethen verb is mostly translated as Begotten, begat, born.

In that case, it should like this:

The One in her is born ( begotten) by the Holy Spirit.

Genao verb is used in Mt 1 many times, Abraham begat Isaac, I saac begat Jacob....
So, the Holy Spirit begat Jesus in her - this is the message in Mt 1:20.

God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten ( genao) Son. ( John 3:16)

 

[Eliyahu]

If one ovum could be used for fertilization, 23 chromosoms of ovum would have been used, then Word of God become another 23 chromosoms?

Then in that moment, the Person Jesus Christ, Son of God, became something which is not Human, because Sperm is not a human being with no brain. God became a sperm? or Word became a Sperm? Hardly !

So far, Nobody has explained the Contradiction between Biological Motherhood of Mary and the following Bible verses.

1) John 1:14
2) Hebrews 7:1-5
3) Matthew 1:20
4) Genesis 18:1-15
5) Hebrews 10:5-10

As for Genesis 3:15, I explained that the Seed doesn't mean only the sperm or egg, but the Offspring.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I agree. The prophecy in Genesis 3:15 was of offspring. Not an ovum

 

[DHK]

I have a question:

How does a woman conceive an ovum? That's something new to me...speaking from a woman's point of view.

It is called the ovarian cycle. The ovary produces and releases an ovum. If an ovum is prepared but the uterus is not prepared to receive it a pregnancy will not develop, and vice versa.
Every month a mature follicle appears on the surface of the ovary. After two weeks of development and undergoing meiosis, the follicle ruptures and releases an ovum--a process called ovulation.
(didn't want to get too much into biology, but you did ask)

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Yer still confused, Bro.

That is not conceiving an ovum. That is releasing an ovum.

 

[DHK]

The ovum was conceived?

DHK, that is what I have been saying all along. It was not Mary's ovum that was used at all. God provided everything.

Now you are Saying that she conceived the ovum of the Holy Ghost.

Thank you for finally understanding that it was not her ovum.

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

What was conceived? Something already in Mary was conceived. That is what the angel said, and that is the way that it had to be in order for Christ to be human. If it is all from God, then Christ could not have had a human nature. Christ had a human nature. Where did it come from? Why the necessity of the virgin birth? He acquired his humanity from Mary or through Mary. He wasn't just Divine, He was the God-Man: totally God and totally man. But he had to derive his humanity from somewhere.

SFIC you seem to be denying the humanity of Christ. If you are not where did that humanity come from? Please explain.

"For that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost"
There was something already in Mary. And that something was conceived of the Holy Spirit. What does that mean. A woman does produce an ovum.
If you want the specifics, a few hours after ovulation a sperm will reach an ovum, move through the follicular cells and penetrate it. During the fertilization process meiosis takes place and the immature ovum nucleus divides. After the sperm and ovum have completely joined togehter, and their membranes disappeared their chromosomes will combine, then it will undergo mitosis and the cells will begin to duplicate.

Do you want me to go on.
At what point do you believe "that which is in her" is referred to by the angel. It only makes sense for it to refer to the beginning of the fertilization process which is the ovum. The Holy Spirit came upon her and fertilized that ovum, from which Christ came--otherwise known as the seed.