The Necessity of Special Creation

[donnA]

Yes that information is correct. What do you think is inaccurate?

How about several pages back where you said MAry concieved an ovum, and Linda disagreed that women do not concieved ovums. Thats what her comment and mine were about, then you come along thinking we know nothing about our bodies and try and teach us something about the female body.

 

[DHK]

How about several pages back where you said MAry concieved an ovum, and Linda disagreed that women do not concieved ovums. Thats what her comment and mine were about, then you come along thinking we know nothing about our bodies and try and teach us something about the female body.

Aaah, I see I got ahead of myself.
Yes, ladies produce their ovums (ova), for as the Bible says: "for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." (Mat.1:20).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Yes, ladies produce their ovums (ova), for as the Bible says: "for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." (Mat.1:20).

HP: I cannot help but ask this question. How does ‘where’ something happens to be residing when conception takes place answer the question as to who produces it? If a ova and a sperm reside and combine in a test tube is it evidence that the test tube produced the ova?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: Qouting Dr. Morris: “The body growing in Mary's womb must have been specially created in full perfection, and placed there by the Holy Spirit, in order for it to be free of inherent sin damage.”

HP: Is Dr. Morris a democrat? :laugh:

 

[Eliyahu]

Again, you are not making sense. It doesn't make sense within the realm of nature, or in common sense.
The word is conceived, not born.
Context gives the meaning of the word in this case.

For example, the English word "church"
I went to the church (building)
The church is buying a new carpet (local church or congregation)
The Church has existed ever since Pentecost (universal church)
The RCC is a corrupt church (denominational organization.)

Only the context in the above examples gives you the correct definition of the word "church." Otherwise you don't know what the meaning is.
The same is true with many words in all languages. Context defines the word. And the context of Mat.1:20 demands the word "conceive" and rules out born or begat.

How would you have interpretted Matthew 1:20 if you had been reading the Greek Texts before KJV was published?

You would have had only Greek Text ( Latin translation as extra), then you would have found the Genao Verb is used there for the same situations.
It is not only Matthew 1:20 where the Holy Spirit gave birth to Jesus.
Read Hebrews 1:5 which quotes Psalm.

Matthew 1
1.1 Αβρααμ εγννησε τον Ισαακ, Ισαακ δε εγεννησε τον Ιακωβ,΄...

1. 11. Ιωσιασ δε εγεννησε τον Ιεχονιαν και τουσ αδελφουσ .....

1.20΄.... το γαρ εν αυτη γεννηθεν εκ Πνευματοσ εστιν Αγιου

1.21 Τεξεται δε υιον και καλεσεισ το ονομα Ιησουν

1.25 και ουκ εγινοωσκεν αυτην εωσ ου ετεκε τον υιον αυτησ τον πρωτοτοκον Και εκαλεσε το ονομα αυτου ΙΗΣΟΥΝ


How come even Genao verb is not used for Mary ?

The typical word for give birth to is genao, but it is not used for Mary. Tiktaw may have the more meaning of Yield, but the typical word for bear is used for the Holy Spirit.

Remember this. The translation of KJV was done 400 years ago when the Life Science is not known at all.

 

[Eliyahu]

Can I ask a direct question? Could God have created a perfect Messiah from the egg of Mary?

Is Messiah Created by God?

Your messiah must be a creature !

 

[DHK]

How would you have interpretted Matthew 1:20 if you had been reading the Greek Texts before KJV was published?

You would have had only Greek Text ( Latin translation as extra), then you would have found the Genao Verb is used there for the same situations.
It is not only Matthew 1:20 where the Holy Spirit gave birth to Jesus.
Read Hebrews 1:5 which quotes Psalm.

Matthew 1
1.1 Αβρααμ εγννησετον Ισαακ, Ισαακ δε εγεννησε τον Ιακωβ,΄...

1. 11. Ιωσιασ δε εγεννησε τον Ιεχονιαν και τουσ αδελφουσ .....

1.20΄.... το γαρ εν αυτη γεννηθεν εκ Πνευματοσ εστιν Αγιου

1.21 Τεξεται δε υιον και καλεσεισ το ονομα Ιησουν

1.25 και ουκ εγινοωσκεν αυτην εωσ ου ετεκε τον υιον αυτησ τον πρωτοτοκον Και εκαλεσε το ονομα αυτου ΙΗΣΟΥΝ


How come even Genao verb is not used for Mary ?

The typical word for give birth to is genao, but it is not used for Mary. Tiktaw may have the more meaning of Yield, but the typical word for bear is used for the Holy Spirit.

Remember this. The translation of KJV was done 400 years ago when the Life Science is not known at all.

Matthew 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

In both of these verses Green's literal translation translates the word as "fathered" which in that time would have had the same basic meaning as conceive.

"for that in her is 'fathered' by the Holy Spirit."
Conceived and fathered mean the same thing in this case.

 

[Eliyahu]

I'm running out but I just want to say what I'm seeing here.
I'm seeing the denial of prophecy and the denial that God can create a perfect human being from Mary's body.

Why does He need a sinner's body since He can still create a new, blemish, sinless body for His beloved Son and can let Him come thru a woman to fulfil the prophecy?

Saying that God can NOT do it.
I say that God could do anything but we know that He sticks to His Word and He stated all through the Old Testament that the Messiah would be born of the seed of Eve (showing that there would not be a man involved since "seed" comes from man) and that He would be of the seed of David.

There was NO prophecy like that. YOu misunderstood greatly as the Saduccees did. The prophecy was simply that Messiah will come as the descendant of the woman, not to come from the seed of the woman. Bring the prophecy!

He could not have then been created apart from the bloodline of Mary because then God would be a liar. Jesus was born from Mary's ovum and He carried her DNA that was perfected through the power of the Holy Spirit. To say that He couldn't do this makes God a weakling.

Her DNA was deformed, damaged, weakened since the Fall of Adam. If God can make her DNA perfect, why doesn't God, the Almighty and Merciful God do it for all the mankind in the world?

God is all powerful. He could have created Jesus from a rock. However, He Himself put limitations on how Jesus would come into this world so that all would know proof positive that He was the Messiah.

If those here choose to say that God did not fulfill prophecy and that just coming out of Mary's birth canal was enough to fulfill the bloodlines, then you are sorely deceived and Satan is laughing.

The prophecy was fulfilled by coming out of Surrogate Mother ! You want more contribution by a woman, don't you? But God doesn't owe anything to human beings.

You are also denying the clear teaching of Scripture and are teaching a heresy that, although Dr. Morris believes it, does not make it truth. All through Christian history, it has been accepted that Mary physically conceived the Messiah from her "seed"/ovum and gave birth to a child through the power of the Holy Spirit. This idea that Jesus had no physical tie to Mary is a new teaching and we know about these new teachings - they are wrong.

You are clearly denying the Scripture teaching " Word became Flesh" one of the most fundamental Truth. Denial of such fundamental Truth is a Heresy! Especially rooted in the RCC.

You asked for Reputable, Reputable, Reputable, but you didn't know about Henry Morris !

Even before the Science, there must have been millions of True believers who denied the Biological Motherhood of Mary though they couldn't organize and express such truth. Mary was a mere creature used for her Creator Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ showed Himself many times during OT era, and He appeared in flesh to the world. He wrestled with Jacob, appeared to Abraham and ate the food, appeared to Manoa.

The reason why He became a Human Embryo was to fulfill the prophecy of OT.

You can never explain JOhn 1:14 and Hebrews 7:1-5 which denies the mother of Son of God.

 

[Eliyahu]

Matthew 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

In both of these verses Green's literal translation translates the word as "fathered" which in that time would have had the same basic meaning as conceive.

"for that in her is 'fathered' by the Holy Spirit."
Conceived and fathered mean the same thing in this case.

So, do you believe that Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus and Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and as a result, The Holy Spirit and Mary were the spouse and parent for Jesus Christ? Hardly !

 

[Eliyahu]

Matthew 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

In both of these verses Green's literal translation translates the word as "fathered" which in that time would have had the same basic meaning as conceive.

"for that in her is 'fathered' by the Holy Spirit."
Conceived and fathered mean the same thing in this case.

Did Elisabeth father John the Baptist?


Luke 1
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear(γεννησει) thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

Genao didn't show any fathering or mothering, but bearing a perfect human being, child, baby.

Show me any verse in your support! I will refute it !

 

[Eliyahu]

Matthew 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

In both of these verses Green's literal translation translates the word as "fathered" which in that time would have had the same basic meaning as conceive.

"for that in her is 'fathered' by the Holy Spirit."
Conceived and fathered mean the same thing in this case.

Does Green translate Matthew 2:1 as " fathered" as well?

Mt 2:

1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,


Jesus was fathered in Bethlehem.......

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: The prophecy was simply that Messiah will come as the descendant of the woman, not to come from the seed of the woman.

HP: Did the seed of Abraham involve or come from a women? How can one be a direct descendant without coming from their seed?

 

[DHK]

So, do you believe that Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus and Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and as a result, The Holy Spirit and Mary were the spouse and parent for Jesus Christ? Hardly !

My wife used to be Presbyterian, and I used to be Catholic. We both had the Apostles Creed memorized. (I include her to show that it is not just a Catholic prayer).
But what does it say? "born of of the virgin Mary, conceived of the Holy Spirit." That is the traditional historic orthodox view of the virgin birth of Christ. To say that the Holy Spirit fathered Christ when he came into this world as a man is not wrong. To say that Christ was born of Mary is not wrong. That is what the Bible says. The Bible says "that which was in her was conceived of the Holy Spirit." Why do you argue against it? You do everything in your power not to believe it. Another translation of the same verse says the same thing in different words: "that which was in her was fathered by the Holy Spirit." So what is the difference. There is none.

 

[DHK]

Did Elisabeth father John the Baptist?

Luke 1
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear(γεννησει) thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

Genao didn't show any fathering or mothering, but bearing a perfect human being, child, baby.

Show me any verse in your support! I will refute it !

No matter what evidence I give you, you don't believe. You just keep asking for more. What is the point any more?

 

[Eliyahu]

double post

 

[Eliyahu]

I have not surveyed very much but as far as I know, the followings are the examples where the Zera meant the seed of human beings.


1. Genesis 38

8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. 9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.


2. Leviticus 15

16 And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. 17 And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even. 18 The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.

The other usage for zera is the seeds of plants, and mostly offspring, descendants, children.

 

[Eliyahu]

No matter what evidence I give you, you don't believe. You just keep asking for more. What is the point any more?

You are well determined not to believe anything, even if Jesus Christ comes today and teach you the same thing " Word became Flesh"

You can never explain " Word became Flesh". In your eyes, Henry Morris is Heretic, and William Tyndale is Heretic because he taught Soul Sleep, etc.

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: Did the seed of Abraham involve or come from a women? How can one be a direct descendant without coming from their seed?

So, you don't count the child by a Surrogate mother as her child?

 

[Eliyahu]

NOBODY explained why Hebrews writer said Son of God had NO Mother !

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Looked up the passage in Matthew where the angel told Joseph, "take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt"

Mother in that verse means mother either immediate, or remote. Remote would suggest surrogate. I believe surrogate applies to Mary.

That which is conceived in her is 'of the Holy Ghost.'