The Necessity of Special Creation

[annsni]

Apparently adopted children are nothing in your opinion. They certainly aren't anyones child. And adoptive parents can not give them their name as it is meaningless. Nor can that child pass down the family name when they have children.
When in reality adopted children have the same rights as natural children, and certainly can use the familes last name and pass that name down to their own children.
Mr. and Mrs. Jones have a son, and adopt a boy. He is now their son also. Both sons grow up and get married, and both have little Jones' , are the grandchildren all considered Jones'? Yes. Each of them will then continue to carry the Jones name to their own children. The adopted boy is a Jones and his children are Jones'.
Unless you want to deny the position of an adopted child in a family. As if they were nothing.
Oops, you already did that, no need to repeat I guess.

This is quite funny to me. I guess you didn't read post #80:

Once again, lineage counts on a blood line. I am not of the lineage of John Doe (not real name) even though he is my grandfather. I am adopted into the family through his daughter Pat. But I cannot claim to be a direct descendent because I am not of the same bloodlines.

God is very clearly interested in blood lines in Scripture. We know that He promised Abraham a son and he had one - with Hagar but that was not the son that would lead to the Messiah. God HAD to make the son between he and Sarah because that is the line that He promised the Messiah would come from. Why couldn't Ishmael have substituted? Because the blood line was wrong.

God set clear prophecy out in the Old Testament about where the Messiah would come from. Jesus would not have been the human Messiah born to all of humanity if did not carry that blood line - the DNA of his father David. Even if Mary were a surrogate, there is still a loss of the bloodline and we KNOW how important the blood is to God.

That makes it clear that there HAD to be a connection between Mary and Jesus - more than just housing him for 40 weeks.

 

[Linda64]

You are well talented to tell the contrary to the Christian Truth.

The Christian Truth is that we commit sins because we were born as sinners.

Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Is this man speaking Heresy?

[FONT=바탕]Job 25[/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148]4[/FONT] How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Matthew 7
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

I would also add this verse from Psalm 51--a Psalm written by David after he had commited adultery with Bathsheba:

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This verse is not saying that David's mother was sinning when she conceived David. It speaks of David's mother being a sinner with a sin nature because of her Adamic nature, thus passing on that same Adamic/sinful nature to David.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Indeed, we do sin because we are sinners--that's biblical truth. Our sin doesn't make us sinners, we are ALREADY sinners because of our Adamic nature.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The body of Jesus was spotless, without blemish and incorruptible:

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Once again, Jesus was not of the bloodline of Abraham. None of Mary's blood was passed to Jesus, nor was a male descendant of Abraham's blood passed to Jesus.

Lineage does not mean bloodline.

 

[annsni]

Once again, Jesus was not of the bloodline of Abraham. None of Mary's blood was passed to Jesus, nor was a male descendant of Abraham's blood passed to Jesus.

Lineage does not mean bloodline.

Yes it does - it does not mean just any old child but a child of their OWN . If Jesus was not of the bloodline of Abraham, then He was not the Messiah.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Yes it does - it does not mean just any old child but a child of their OWN . If Jesus was not of the bloodline of Abraham, then He was not the Messiah.

annsni, look up the Greek definition for the word 'lineage' in the Bible. I will give you a clue. It is only found in one place. Luke 2:4.

Then come back and tell me if the word 'bloodline' is there.

 

[Eliyahu]

Dear Ann,

I would answer you on the issues raised by you partially:

Originally Posted by Eliyahu
Why does He need a sinner's body since He can still create a new, blemish, sinless body for His beloved Son and can let Him come thru a woman to fulfil the prophecy?

Because of bloodlines, of lineage and heritage. He was not of the line of David if He did not come from Mary's egg.

When we look at the whole Scriptures, the Bloodline was a little ignored, and the prophecies came true in a way different from the human expectations.

Here is what Paul says:

28 there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus; 29 and if ye [are] of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise -- heirs.

Quote:Eliyahu said:
There was NO prophecy like that. YOu misunderstood greatly as the Saduccees did. The prophecy was simply that Messiah will come as the descendant of the woman, not to come from the seed of the woman. Bring the prophecy!

There was no prophecy that the Messiah would come from the line of David? That He would be born of Eve's seed?

Yes from the line of David, as the descendant of David. It can be fulfilled by the Surrogate Motherhood. Not specified to be born of Eve's Seed, but by becoming the descendant of Eve as the meaning of Eve ( Hawa) is Life.

Quote:Eliyahu said
Her DNA was deformed, damaged, weakened since the Fall of Adam. If God can make her DNA perfect, why doesn't God, the Almighty and Merciful God do it for all the mankind in the world?

Because it was not His plan, apparently. He had another idea that what you would choose.

This is not an easy question to explain away like that.

God cannot forgive the sins of the people without punishing those sins.
That's why He allowed His beloeved Son to die the terrible death.

God cannot turn the deformed, defective egg to become perfect, sinless, blemish unless the eggs repent and accept the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ as their own and believe in Jesus, or at least if the ovum lives in the OT era, it must have believed that the sacrifice by the lamb was the shadow of Jesus Christ. Eggs or Sperms cannot repent, nor receive Jesus Christ as their Savior, nor believe in Jesus Christ!

If the Ovum of a Woman can be purified by God's Omnipotent Power, why didn't the merciful and most lovingly-kind and graceful God do the same for the Sperms? then All the sperms and eggs of the mankind could have been Immaculate and they would have been sinless.

What did Jesus do at Gethshemane? Did He pray God to let the cup pass away from Himself because He was scared to experience it? Did Jesus have a human desire to avoid the horrible death?
No, He was not coward!

As He was Omni-Scient, He must have known the answer from God, then did He pray a fake Prayer to God?

He knew all things, but His prayer exhibit His absolute Obedience to God, then clear confirmation for all human beings that THERE WAS NO WAy other than His own death, the most painful and unjust death penalty on behalf of us, the cruel and shameful death caused by His own creatures.
There was NO WAY to make the Ovums be sinless and spotless, and blemish so that they could produce sinless persons!

If Mary could become Sinless by a mysterious way, by God, why didn't God offer such grace to other people as well? then Jesus would not have to die such death !

There is Nther way than the death of the sinners, and Jesus died on behalf of the sinners.

Acts 4
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[trustitl]

Linda64 wrote:
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This verse is not saying that David's mother was sinning when she conceived David. It speaks of David's mother being a sinner with a sin nature because of her Adamic nature, thus passing on that same Adamic/sinful nature to David.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Indeed, we do sin because we are sinners--that's biblical truth. Our sin doesn't make us sinners, we are ALREADY sinners because of our Adamic nature.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

You are right that David's mother was not sinning when she conceived. However, Psalm 51 is far from saying that she was passing on a sinful nature to her son. It is merely saying that David, as are all of us, are born into an enivronment where sin reigns. Was Jesus not born as a man as we are? You have him being born as a different type of man than us.

Romans 5:12 says that sin entered by Adam. The result of that sin was death. Say that to anybody other that someone perverted in their thinking by theology and they will know that death is what happens when we are no longer living. It is not spiritual death, a term or concept that appears no where in scripture.

Romans 5:19 is merely equating the effect of Adam's sin and Jesus' righteousness.
You, along with others use it to support the false teaching that all become sinners in Adam. The verse is teaching that just like Adam changed history through his actions, so Christ will as well.

If your doctrine were correct the Bible would have said "For by one man's disobedience ALL became sinners, so by the obedience of one MANY became righteous."

You quote Romans 3:23 to show that all fall short of the glory of God because they SINNED right after you say that we fell short of it because of our nature, not because of our actions. You can't have it both ways.

I hope you will consider what I am saying. It sure rocked my boat when I was first confronted with it, but it finally made a lot of scripture make sense.

God bless.

 

[Linda64]

I hope you will consider what I am saying. It sure rocked my boat when I was first confronted with it, but it finally made a lot of scripture make sense.

I choose to believe God's Word and reject that which you have posted here.

 

[Eliyahu]

Annsni, ( Continued)

Quote:Eliyahu said
The prophecy was fulfilled by coming out of Surrogate Mother ! You want more contribution by a woman, don't you? But God doesn't owe anything to human beings.

Coming out of a surrogate mother does not a lineage make. No - God doesn't owe anything to human beings, but His plan was to include them in the redemption story.

If the Surrogate Mother was hired among the Levites, then the Prophecy didn't come true. But as long as He was born of David's family, the prophecy came true.
If you believe the lineage should be linked to David's, then it should be done in the way of " Word became Flesh" How could you satisfy this? How could John state this boldly if he believed the seed of Mary was used because apparently the seed of woman became Flesh without man's seed?

Do you think that "Word became Flesh" meant the Woman's egg becoming Flesh without Male Sperm like the Human Cloning these days?

Woman's egg alone can produce sinless, spotless, perfect people? If so, the stem cell researchers may produce perfect people !

Quote: Eliyahu said
You are clearly denying the Scripture teaching " Word became Flesh" one of the most fundamental Truth. Denial of such fundamental Truth is a Heresy! Especially rooted in the RCC.

ROTFL! Heresy??

"Word became Flesh" has been one of the most important truth of Christianity. Its denial means the Heresy. Roman Catholic is the Biggest Cult in the Christian history, killing millions of Christian believers.

That's a good one! When Mary was born, she had all the ovum in her body. Was that one particular ova the Word? No. It was not until the Holy Spirit came upon her and conceived in her the flesh that was to be the Messiah that the flesh was created. You quite limit God in saying this AND deny God's Word of prophecy.

YOu are saying that the Flesh ( Ovum of Mary) became Flesh ( Body of Jesus) by the action and stimulation of the Holy Spirit. Now you must not forget that the Ovum of Mary was the part of the sinner's body and its fruit, and was designed for being fertilized with the sperms. Did the Holy Spirit becocme the Sperm first? You may plead with the mystery, but there is a problem with it because Ovum is not designed for being fertilized with the Word, then the Word might have become the Sperm first having another 23 chromosomes. Did Word become a Sperm first?

Why can you not believe that the Word became a perfect human embryo first? YOu remember God showed up to Abraham with 2 Angels( Malacks, not the elohim, the angels) and these Malacks meant the Theonanic Angel having the authority of the Judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah, they may be the Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, Jehovah and 2 Malacks ate the food offered by Abraham, and had their feet washed, took the rest, and the Malack wrestled with the Jacob. If one say the same God or the same Malack come into the womb of Mary in the form of Human Embryo, will you reject it? Why?

Quote:Eliyahu said
[You asked for Reputable, Reputable, Reputable, but you didn't know about Henry Morris !

I actually had heard of him - the name sounded familiar but I didn't know in what context. Just because he's a creation scientist doesn't make him a theologian or an expert in knowing everything about Scripture. Both you and he take an unorthodox view of the birth of Christ - a view that the majority of Christiandom has never taken and would label as heresy.

Now come up with another reputable person who believes this. Give me a reputable theologian. I'd like to see that.

Who are the majority of the Christiandom? Roman Catholic 1.3 Billion, Greek and Russian Orthodox 0.5 Billion, Church of England and Episcopal 80 million, Some Lutheran, Some of the Presbyterian more than 60 million, all of them have tremendous problems, and they may believe the Biological Motherhood of Mary. They are mostly Heretics!

Look at them here, resulting from the Immaculate Conception:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aQ44pSTHgFQ&feature=related

You may be pursuing the Broadway ( Mat 7:13-23).
As for me, even Henry Morris is not my authority, but the Bible is enough.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The human egg becomes flesh already. It does not need the Word in order for it to become flesh. The human egg becomes flesh naturally.

The supernatural event was not that the Word became an egg, nor that the Word became a sperm cell, nor that the Word was put into an egg or a sperm cell, but that the Word became flesh. Praise God.

If Mary's egg had been used, the miracle of the event would have to be questioned by every man woman and child on this planet today, as the fertilized egg becomes flesh anyway. Where is the miracle?

The miracle is that the Word became flesh. No egg, no sperm cell... it was all supernatural.

 

[annsni]

Here is an article by John F. Walvoord, former president of Dallas Theological Seminary for 34 years. It explains fully what I and DHK have been saying all along. Take the time to read it (it's way too long to C&P here).

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=5417

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Annsni: Yes it does - it does not mean just any old child but a child of their OWN . If Jesus was not of the bloodline of Abraham, then He was not the Messiah.

HP: Well said, precise and according to Scripture.:thumbs: Let no one deter you from that truth.

 

[Eliyahu]

Ann, ( continued)

Eliyahu said:
Even before the Science, there must have been millions of True believers who denied the Biological Motherhood of Mary though they couldn't organize and express such truth. Mary was a mere creature used for her Creator Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ showed Himself many times during OT era, and He appeared in flesh to the world. He wrestled with Jacob, appeared to Abraham and ate the food, appeared to Manoa.

The reason why He became a Human Embryo was to fulfill the prophecy of OT.

You can never explain JOhn 1:14 and Hebrews 7:1-5 which denies the mother of Son of God.

Hebrews 7, according to your interpretation would mean that Mary did not birth Jesus, which is not what Scripture says. The Son of God did not have a mother - but Jesus did. The Son of God absolutely has a father - the heavenly Father, but Jesus did not. The Son of God did not have beginning of days but Jesus did. The Son of God did not have end of days - but Jesus did. I think you can see where that's going.

As for John 1:14, the orthodox view of Jesus' origin is completely in line with this Scripture as I said.

You revealed the Absolute Heresy, which is a big tragedy on this board.

YOu are denying Jesus is not the same as the Son of God, and thereby you are denying that Jesus is Son of God!


1 John 4:
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Many Anti-Christs denied that Jesus is the Christ, as you deny the truth that Jesus is Son of God.

You say that Jesus had the beginning of Days. Read here:

John 8:

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. ( Please note tense here!)

Jesus IS before Abraham WAS.

When was the days of His Beginning?

You are in big Heresies! denying that the human embryo in Mary was the same person who worked in OT times.

Your whole theology on this issue can find little ground in the Bible.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: How could you satisfy this? How could John state this boldly if he believed the seed of Mary was used because apparently the seed of woman became Flesh without man's seed?

HP: Scripture states that he took upon Himself the ‘seed of Abraham.” Abraham was indeed a man and his seed was indeed human, passed through David to Joseph the father of Jesus. Scripture simply tells us that Joseph was not the one implanting the seed, but rather the Holy Spirit.

 

[donnA]

The word bloodline is not in the bible. This is adding to scripture.

 

[donnA]

HP: Scripture states that he took upon Himself the ‘seed of Abraham.” Abraham was indeed a man and his seed was indeed human, passed through David to Joseph the father of Jesus. Scripture simply tells us that Joseph was not the one implanting the seed, but rather the Holy Spirit.

If you haven't noticed, heres a clue, Joseph is not Jesus' father, the Holy Spirit did not implant Joesph's seed in Mary.

 

[Eliyahu]

I would also add this verse from Psalm 51--a Psalm written by David after he had commited adultery with Bathsheba:

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This verse is not saying that David's mother was sinning when she conceived David. It speaks of David's mother being a sinner with a sin nature because of her Adamic nature, thus passing on that same Adamic/sinful nature to David.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Indeed, we do sin because we are sinners--that's biblical truth. Our sin doesn't make us sinners, we are ALREADY sinners because of our Adamic nature.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The body of Jesus was spotless, without blemish and incorruptible:

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Well supplemented. Thanks.

 

[trustitl]

I choose to believe God's Word and reject that which you have posted here.

OK, but consider that you are adding to what the scriptures you posted SAY.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned(it doesn't say are born sinners), and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death(not a sinful nature) by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:(not are born sinners)

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity (not as an iniquitous one); and in sin (not as a sinner) did my mother conceive me.

Just pointing out what they SAY.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Donna: If you haven't noticed, heres a clue, Joseph is not Jesus' father, the Holy Spirit did not implant Joesph's seed in Mary.

HP: Two specific lineages given to us in Scripture state differently. Joseph was indeed the father of Jesus, although again NOT by any normal method of conception but rather by the implanting of the seed of Joseph supernaturally into the womb of Mary.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

HP: Two specific lineages given to us in Scripture state differently. Joseph was indeed the father of Jesus, although again NOT by any normal method of conception but rather by the implanting of the seed of Joseph supernaturally into the womb of Mary.

Then Jesus Christ would be completely man and not God at all. You better go back and regroup, HP, that boat don't float.