The Necessity of Special Creation

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: Then Jesus Christ would be completely man and not God at all. You better go back and regroup, HP, that boat don't float.

HP: He was completely man……….and He was God. I do not have to reconcile these two facts in the least. I just have to by faith believe. Only those with a false presupposition of the Augustinian dogma of original sin cannot one accept both truths as presented to us clearly in Scripture. You do not have to destroy His humanity to make Him Divine.

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: Scripture states that he took upon Himself the ‘seed of Abraham.” Abraham was indeed a man and his seed was indeed human, passed through David to Joseph the father of Jesus. Scripture simply tells us that Joseph was not the one implanting the seed, but rather the Holy Spirit.

Another Misunderstanding by the Greek Illiterates here !

I already mentioned the Spermatos Abraham ( σπερματοσ Αβρααμ) is not the Objective Form as the many English translations translate!
It is the genitive ( Possessive) form, and it means something was abbreviated and for better understanding something should be added or recovered.

What was abbreviated here is the common points between Angels and Abraham, which means some nature or characteristics.

So the sentence should be like this:

Hebrews 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the nature of the seed of Abraham.

The Seed of Abraham means all human beings, so the interpretation of this is

Jesus didn't take the nature of the angels, but the nature of the human beings.

Can this be possible only by taking the Ovum of Mary?

I don't think so unless He should become another sinner, full of weakness and disobedience to God as the others do.

He could take the human nature by coming out of His Surrogate Mother.

Does this mean that He should have defective genes as the other do? NOPE !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the nature of the seed of Abraham.

HP: You had better run this one past SFIC. I do not think he would approve, and would venture a guess that he would see this as clearly unscriptural. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Eliyahu]

I have mentioned to you before that you tend to focus on the deity of Christ almost to the exclusion of the humanity of Christ. He has both. He is the God-Man: totally human and totally God at the same time. The picture given in Hebrews is obviously of Christ in his deity, our High Priest. Christ has no mother and no father. He is not a created being.

But his human nature must be accounted for in some way. The Bible is clear on how Christ came into this world. He was born of a virgin conceived of the Holy Spirit. That is what orthodox Christianity has taught from the first century onward. Whether one translates Mat.1:20 as conceived by the Holy Spirit or fathered by the Holy Spirit it makes no difference. The teaching is still there, and it cannot be denied.

Likewise: the power of the Mighty shall come upon thee and overshadow thee...Luke 1:35
"made of a woman" (Gal.4:4)
Behold I shall give you a sign a virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel (Isa.7:14)

And on and on the list goes.
The Bible's clear teaching is that Christ was born of a virgin, conceived of the Holy Spirit. The evidence is overwhelming.

Nobody denies that Jesus was born of a virgin.

The so-called Orthodox tortured and killed many True Believers including the Baptists. I believe many believers didn't believe the role of Mary more than the Surrogate Motherhood.

The Bible verses that you quoted do not support your claim at all.

Matthew 1:20 clearly tells us that Jesus was already born even before Mary delievered Him.
You can find any verse which can override John 1:14, nowhere in the Bible.

Remember this: Jesus identifies Himself as the same person who met Abraham? Where was the brain gone if the Holy Spirit formed a new person by fertilization with Ovum of Mary?

 

[trustitl]

HP: He was completely man……….and He was God. I do not have to reconcile these two facts in the least. I just have to by faith believe. Only those with a false presupposition of the Augustinian dogma of original sin cannot one accept both truths as presented to us clearly in Scripture. You do not have to destroy His humanity to make Him Divine.

I would agree with everything you say here but I part with you about Joseph's seed.

Matt. 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; 4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; 5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; 6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; 7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; 8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; 9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; 10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; 11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; 13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; 14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; 15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Notice all the begats? They end in verse 16 with Joseph's father.

And God so loved the world that he gave His only BEGOTTEN son(that is, he begat). Can't explain the DNA thing, but since scripture doesn't, I'm not going to try.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The Bible's clear teaching is that Christ was born of a virgin, conceived of the Holy Spirit. The evidence is overwhelming.

HP: What an excellent insight into truth you share. :thumbs: And that in reality is all we are told to believe or need to accept concerning the Deity and Humanity of Christ.

 

[donnA]

HP: Two specific lineages given to us in Scripture state differently. Joseph was indeed the father of Jesus, although again NOT by any normal method of conception but rather by the implanting of the seed of Joseph supernaturally into the womb of Mary.

This couldn't be further from scriptural truth. You just took away Jesus' deity, He is no longer the Son of God. He is nothing more then a man, who could not pay the penalty of anyone's sins, He could not be the Savior, He needs a Savior.
This is by far the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard on this board.

 

[donnA]

DHK: The Bible's clear teaching is that Christ was born of a virgin, conceived of the Holy Spirit. The evidence is overwhelming.

HP: What an excellent insight into truth you share. :thumbs: And that in reality is all we are told to believe or need to accept concerning the Deity and Humanity of Christ.

So which is it, concieved by Joseph or the Holy Spirit?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[DHK]

Annsni, ( Continued)
If you believe the lineage should be linked to David's, then it should be done in the way of " Word became Flesh" How could you satisfy this?

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
--The Word did become flesh.

How could John state this boldly if he believed the seed of Mary was used because apparently the seed of woman became Flesh without man's seed?

Because it plainly says that "that which in you is conceived of the Holy Spirit." Do you deny that which is written?

Do you think that "Word became Flesh" meant the Woman's egg becoming Flesh without Male Sperm like the Human Cloning these days?

Do you deny what the word of God plainly says and keep on questioning its veracity, or do you just deny the supernatural and miraculous nature of the virgin birth. Christ was born of a virgin, conceived of the Holy Spirit. That is historic orthodox Christian truth, and has been throughout every century since the Apostles.

Woman's egg alone can produce sinless, spotless, perfect people? If so, the stem cell researchers may produce perfect people !

Save your stem cell research for another thread. That is not what this thread is about. A woman's ovum alone dies. It produces nothing. If the egg has been fertilized then it has been fertilized with a sperm. The sperm technically carries the sin nature.

"Word became Flesh" has been one of the most important truth of Christianity. Its denial means the Heresy. Roman Catholic is the Biggest Cult in the Christian history, killing millions of Christian believers.

Non sequitor. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Or am I to assume from this statement that you deny the trinity. That is about the extent of logic that you have provided.

YOu are saying that the Flesh ( Ovum of Mary) became Flesh ( Body of Jesus) by the action and stimulation of the Holy Spirit. Now you must not forget that the Ovum of Mary was the part of the sinner's body and its fruit, and was designed for being fertilized with the sperms.

It was Jesus that said: "that which is born of the flesh is flesh." He did have a human nature. Where did it come from? Do you deny the virgin birth and its miraculous nature?

Did the Holy Spirit becocme the Sperm first? You may plead with the mystery, but there is a problem with it because Ovum is not designed for being fertilized with the Word, then the Word might have become the Sperm first having another 23 chromosomes. Did Word become a Sperm first?

Was that which was in Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit? My Bible says it was, so the answer is whether you believe the Bible or not. Your unbelief at this point is astounding. Was Jesus born of a virgin, conceived of the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?

Why can you not believe that the Word became a perfect human embryo first?

What is the basis for your understanding of the virgin birth? Either you believe the Bible that Mary conceived or she didn't. If you don't take God's Word as it is, you start to go down this slippery slope.
Embryology is the study of the time between fertilization and the birth of the baby. Basically you are doing away with everything that the ferilization process entails, or everything that the word "conceived" or "fathered" means. That is a contradiction of the Word of God.

YOu remember God showed up to Abraham with 2 Angels( Malacks, not the elohim, the angels) and these Malacks meant the Theonanic Angel having the authority of the Judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah, they may be the Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, Jehovah and 2 Malacks ate the food offered by Abraham, and had their feet washed, took the rest, and the Malack wrestled with the Jacob. If one say the same God or the same Malack come into the womb of Mary in the form of Human Embryo, will you reject it? Why?

You are very confused and have two stories rolled into one. Jehovah God (a theophany) along with two angelic beings met with Abraham. Certainly they had the ability to eat and rest and walk. God (or Jesus) appeared to certain people of the OT at certain brief periods of times in history. Those times were very brief, and they were not a time when God manifested himself to the world.

Who are the majority of the Christiandom? Roman Catholic 1.3 Billion, Greek and Russian Orthodox 0.5 Billion, Church of England and Episcopal 80 million, Some Lutheran, Some of the Presbyterian more than 60 million, all of them have tremendous problems, and they may believe the Biological Motherhood of Mary. They are mostly Heretics!

And your point is? How many of them believe in the trinity?

Look at them here, resulting from the Immaculate Conception:

Your conclusion is illogical. Belief in the virgin birth does not result from the IC

You may be pursuing the Broadway ( Mat 7:13-23).
As for me, even Henry Morris is not my authority, but the Bible is enough.

It appears that you don't believe the Bible, the way that you have been interpreting it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Donna: So which is it, concieved by Joseph or the Holy Spirit?

HP: Funny you would ask seeing how you say you are listening. Let me repeat myself and restate the Scriptural position. The Holy Spirit did the conceiving, but the seed was that of man, Abraham's to be exact.

 

[donnA]

DHK: Because it plainly says that "that which in you is conceived of the Holy Spirit."

DHK, I'd like to see what you think of this,

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP: Two specific lineages given to us in Scripture state differently. Joseph was indeed the father of Jesus, although again NOT by any normal method of conception but rather by the implanting of the seed of Joseph supernaturally into the womb of Mary.

just curious.

 

[donnA]

HP: Funny you would ask seeing how you say you are listening. Let me repeat myself and restate the Scriptural position. The Holy Spirit did the conceiving, but the seed was that of man, Abraham's to be exact.

So lets see, the Holy Spirit took Abraham's (shouldn't that be Joseph, a typing mistake prehaps?)seed implanted it into Mary so that the two together made Jesus' body? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Eliyahu]

1 Cor 15

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Can the Second Adam belong to the First Adam?

Didn't Mary belong to the First Adam?

Did the part or fruit of the First Adam become the Second Adam?

Why doesn't God make all the ovums of the world become perfect by a mysterious action so that they all become sinless and perfect?

Biological Motherhood of Mary is the Heresy leavened by Catholicism and the result of it is very clear as you can watch this:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=aQ44pSTHgFQ&feature=related


http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZyoC2FEyTbs&feature=related


http://youtube.com/watch?v=EuZGsjmTOZo&feature=related

Biological Motherhood of Mary can hardly stand without Immaculate Conception which is the RCC Heresy!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Donna: So lets see, the Holy Spirit took Abraham's (shouldn't that be Joseph, a typing mistake prehaps?)seed implanted it into Mary so that the two together made Jesus' body? Is that what you are saying?

HP: I could have said King David’s as well, seeing Abraham, King David, and his father Joseph were all of the same seed. God did not specifically send an angel to me to tell me exactly how it was accomplished, but rather He told me in His Word He took the seed of Abraham as transmitted down by physical lineage to King David and on to Joseph, and implanted that specific line of seed by the Holy Spirit to combine in the womb of the virgin Mary to create the physical ties prophesied in Scripture for Abraham to Jesus through Joseph his father. This again was only speaking of the humanity side of Christ, not His Deity.

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP: Two specific lineages given to us in Scripture state differently. Joseph was indeed the father of Jesus, although again NOT by any normal method of conception but rather by the implanting of the seed of Joseph supernaturally into the womb of Mary.

Well Donna, it sounds like heresy to me.
Joseph was not the father of Jesus, for Jesus was virgin born, and the only Father that he had was our Father in Heaven. The genealogy of Joseph was given for appearance sake to trace his line back through David. Both Mary and Joseph had to be heirs of David.

However, Mary was the only one that qualified for those that really cared about the Christ, the Messiah.
Many only knew Christ as "the Carpenter's son, the son of Joseph.
Some knew him as "the man from Galilee," though that is not where he was born.
Others said that he was born of fornication (John 8).

But very few knew that he was born in Bethlehem, and fewer knew that he was born of a virgin. That was left up to the true disciples of Christ such as John.

There is another fact that goes unnoticed in the genealogy that give credence to the absolute necessity of the virgin birth:

[FONT=&quot] Jer. 22:24-30 shows that the curse of Jechoniah demanded it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a. The Lord's promise to David (2 Sam.7:16): Thine house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be established forever."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]b. Several generations later Jehoiachin (Coniah) was cursed (Jer.22:30): Thus saith the Lord write this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]c. The physical link was cursed by God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]d. Joseph, the legal father of Jesus, was of this cursed line.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]e. The solution: Mary was a descendant of Nathan, another son of David (Lk.3:31).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]f. There was no other way that the Lord Jesus could have escaped the curse. The fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy of the virgin birth is the only way the Lord could be true to His promise to David and His curse on Jehoiachin.[/FONT]

 

[annsni]

Ann, ( continued)



You revealed the Absolute Heresy, which is a big tragedy on this board.

YOu are denying Jesus is not the same as the Son of God, and thereby you are denying that Jesus is Son of God!


1 John 4:
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Many Anti-Christs denied that Jesus is the Christ, as you deny the truth that Jesus is Son of God.

You say that Jesus had the beginning of Days. Read here:

John 8:

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. ( Please note tense here!)

Jesus IS before Abraham WAS.

When was the days of His Beginning?

You are in big Heresies! denying that the human embryo in Mary was the same person who worked in OT times.

Your whole theology on this issue can find little ground in the Bible.

Good heavens - I'm speaking of the 2 different natures of Jesus - the Son of God. I'm speaking of the flesh of Jesus from the time that He was conceived to the time that He died then was resurrected and ascended into heaven. I didn't think I needed to clarify that.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The genealogy of Joseph was given for appearance sake

HP: And where in Scripture do you find that juicy piece of conjecture? So here we have it. God drums up this genealogy concerning Joseph evidently to save face for possibly Joseph, Himself of others that might accuse Jesus of being the product of fornication or something worse? Could you explain your comments for the list? Does God or Joseph somehow need a lie to cover for their actions, or the lack therof, in the conception of Jesus?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Of course the virgin birth was needed. Man cannot give birth to man. It is the woman that gives birth.

In the same light, the virgin birth does not necessitate the use of the female ovum just as it did not necessitate the use of the male sperm cell.

As I pointed out earlier, the Word of God declares God send His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), it states the Word became Flesh (John 1:14), not that it attached itself to a human egg. The human egg becomes flesh without the use of the Word; if it did not, we would not be here today.

The Word became flesh. It bypassed the need for a sperm cell, the need for a ovum, and became flesh. Just as Scripture declared.

 

[Eliyahu]

[FONT=&quot]Jer. 22:24-30 shows that the curse of Jechoniah demanded it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a. The Lord's promise to David (2 Sam.7:16): Thine house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be established forever."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]b. Several generations later Jehoiachin (Coniah) was cursed (Jer.22:30): Thus saith the Lord write this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]c. The physical link was cursed by God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]d. Joseph, the legal father of Jesus, was of this cursed line.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]e. The solution: Mary was a descendant of Nathan, another son of David (Lk.3:31).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]f. There was no other way that the Lord Jesus could have escaped the curse. The fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy of the virgin birth is the only way the Lord could be true to His promise to David and His curse on Jehoiachin.[/FONT]

How do you know Luke 3 is the genealogy of Mary since there is no mentioning of Mary at all while Matthew 1 mentions the name of Mary?

Luke 3
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, 25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,

If Mary is so much important, then why doesn't Bible mention even name of Her?

I don't rule out the possibility of the Mary's genealogy, but why not the genealogy of Joseph's mother side?

Why can we not find the name of the Biological Mother in the Biological genealogy? Is it not important?