What Happens if you are Not KJB only?

[Will J. Kinney]

Hi Charles, you ask: "Craig,
Are you accusing Dr Bob Griffin of having made a blasphemous statement against the Holy Spirit??
That is not called for (not to mention WRONG).
I am also a "doctor" - and your comments border on offensive. Do you suggest that education is counterproductive?
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Charles, I can't answer for brother Craig, but I will give my own opinion. If a seminary education results in the good doctor telling us on the one hand that he can correct the Hebrew texts when he feels or thinks they have been corrupted by scribal errors, and that he essentially picks and chooses which readings in the N.T. he personally feels are the correct ones, and then in the face of all the totally different renderings, variant readings, and many absurd statements found in the multiplicity of conflicting bible versions, he can say, apparently with a straight face, that "all our bibles are inspired by the same Holy Spirit", then I would conclude that his education has turned his mind into mush and he has as much spiritual discernment in this area of Final Authority as a bowl of lime jello.

You may not agree with the statement made by another well known KJB defender, but I believe he is right in this. "If you mess with the Book, God will mess with your mind."


I believe we see this in Dr. Bob when he comes up with such pearls of wisdom as "all our Bibles are inspired by the same Holy Spirit."

This is ridiculous on its face; ignores Satan's opposition to and corrupting influence of the word of God, and the sinfulness of man in corrupting this same word.

So in one sense, Dr. Bob is blaming the Holy Spirit for all those errors, textual variants, additions, omissions, resulting confusion and outright goofy statements found in some of "our" bibles.

I think this may be what Preach It was saying, and I agree with him on this.

Will K

 

[Will J. Kinney]

Hi Skanwmatos,

to answer your points.

One such lie is found in 2 Samuel 14:14. . . . In the course of their conversation the woman finally tells king David in 2 Samuel 14: 13 -14: "the king doth speak this thing as one which is faulty, in that the king doth not fetch home again his banished. For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; NEITHER DOTH GOD RESPECT ANY PERSON: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him."
. . . Other Bible versions that read as the King James Bible are the Geneva Bible of 1599, . . . However when we get to the New KJV, the NIV and the NASB instead of "neither doth God respect any person" they read "YET GOD DOES NOT TAKE AWAY LIFE". This is a lie and a contradiction.
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"Just a couple comments. The confusion is not based on a difference in Hebrew texts. The meaning of the Hebrew is ambiguous. The most literal rending would read, "God does not take a soul away." So, either reading would give us the same general sense. God is not a respecter of persons so he does not take a soul (or life) away."


Skanwmatos, Hebrew words have many and sometimes opposite meanings. Even the NASB, NIV, NKJV render these same words as the KJB has them, but in other places. The Hebrew is frequently "ambiguous", and if you take a humanistic, naturalistic view of Scripture (as all do who do not believe the KJB is the preserved words of God) then one can come up with the meaning found in the nkjv, niv, nasb etc. But this meaning "God does not take away life" is a false statement and proves these versions to be false witnesses at this point.

Secondly, you said: " the Geneva bible reads "neither doeth God spare any person." You are claiming that is "like the KJV" but in my opinion it seems to be closer to the other versions rendering."

Sorry, skanwmatos, but I disagree. The context speaks of " we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again;" and God doth not spare any person" would then be equivalent to the KJB meaning - not to the opposite meaning found in the nkjv, niv, nasb.

Will K

 

[Will J. Kinney]

Your link contains some interesting material...
I read one article on it which misidentified the Hebrew word it was dealing with. I did not go any farther.
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And what would that word be, Charles?

Which article was it found in? If it is in error, please let me know so I can correct it or defend it. Thanks,

Will K

 

[HankD]

Is it time to put this mean-spirited thread out of its misery?

HankD

 

[Anti-Alexandrian]

How did you (Craig, and other KJVO) initially come to believe that the KJV is the standard against which other versions are judged?

John 16:13,Proverbs 22:17-21,and 2 Corinthians 2:9-13. Now,Scripture(KJB)should be enough to resolve that problem for you;Or will you "yeah but..." that one away too?

Really.

Really..

 

[Will J. Kinney]

gb posts: Is the Jesus Christ in your bible the one who lied in John 7:8 NASB, ESV? The KJB, NIV, RV, and NKJV say: "Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up YET unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come"...verse 10 "But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret." But the NASB, ESV have Jesus saying: "I do NOT GO up to this feast... But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up".

gb says:
I don't see your point. My NASU 95 reads, "Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come." 9 Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee. 10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret. "

Well gb, your Greek texts of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus differ from each other and some of your scholars went with one reading while the others went with the other. Problem is the nasb has Jesus saying He is NOT going to the feast, and then He does, while the correct KJB reading has Jesus saying He is NOT YET going to the feast, and then He goes later. In the one case Christ lied, and in the other He did not.


Can God be deceived as the NASB teaches in Ps. 78:36? The NASB says the children of Israel DECEIVED GOD with their mouths, but the NKJV, KJB, NIV, RV, ASV all say they "flattered" God with their mouths and lied unto Him. You can flatter God by saying nice things about Him but not letting Him control your behavior, but you certainly cannot deceive Him.

gb says:
Is not flattery a form of deceit? The MT has in the Hebrew "deceived" for the Piel form of the verb.
Just because you don't like the way it is phrased does not mean it is wrong."

gb, flattery is saying something nice about someone else in order to try to get something out of them and it is insincere. But God cannot be deceived. He can be flattered, but not deceived. The nasb is flat out wrong here and you are deceived if you don't see that. And I certainly am not flattering you when I tell you you are deceived.

It is one of several totally stupid and senseless renderings found in the nasb that shows it to be a false witness.

Will K

 

[Will J. Kinney]

Hi Charles, you ask a good question.

"So, if you please, without railing out about "DOCTORS", ecumenism, or blasphemy - tell me why I (or anyone) should believe that the English KJV (and the underlying manuscripts) trump all else."

Charles, I was "backed into" the KJB position a few years ago. I once thought that all bibles were essentially the same too, but that was out of ignorance and not taking the word of God seriously and really believing what the Book says about itself.

God promised to preserve His words till heaven and earth pass away. God cannot lie. So if I find lies or false statements in a "bible version", then I know this is not where God's pure words lie. One by one the versions were eliminated in my mind till I was left with only one Book standing. That is the King James Bible. They all cannot be true at the same time when they are so different. Most people have never really compared the various versions to see just how different they really are, and most people do not really believe what God says about His words. I didn't before, but now I do.

Hope this helps some.

Will K

 

[Will J. Kinney]

Is it time to put this mean-spirited thread out of its misery?
HankD

Hank, I think the only misery you are feeling is the realization that your case for no inspired, inerrant words of God on this earth, and every man is a scholar unto himself position is being bashed into little pieces and shown to be the nonsense of unbelief and pride of intellect that it really is.

The essential emptiness and vanity of your side is being revealed and this is the misery you now sense. Maybe Dr. Bob will once again step in and close this topic down like he did the last time, and save you any further discomfort.

Will K

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Anti-Alexandrian:
[QB]

How did you (Craig, and other KJVO) initially come to believe that the KJV is the standard against which other versions are judged?

John 16:13,Proverbs 22:17-21,and 2 Corinthians 2:9-13. Now,Scripture(KJB)should be enough to resolve that problem for you;Or will you "yeah but..." that one away too?

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

17 Pay attention and listen to the sayings of the wise;
apply your heart to what I teach,
18 for it is pleasing when you keep them in your heart
and have all of them ready on your lips.
19 So that your trust may be in the LORD ,
I teach you today, even you.
20 Have I not written thirty [2] sayings for you,
sayings of counsel and knowledge,
21 teaching you true and reliable words,
so that you can give sound answers
to him who sent you?

9The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven--if there was anything to forgive--I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. 12Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me, 13I still had no peace of mind, because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I said good-by to them and went on to Macedonia.

None of those mention the KJV. In fact the KJV is not unique in this area - so, again, how is the KJV the standard according to the Book?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Will J. Kinney:

Can God be deceived as the NASB teaches in Ps. 78:36? The NASB says the children of Israel DECEIVED GOD with their mouths, but the NKJV, KJB, NIV, RV, ASV all say they "flattered" God with their mouths and lied unto Him. You can flatter God by saying nice things about Him but not letting Him control your behavior, but you certainly cannot deceive Him.

gb says:
Is not flattery a form of deceit? The MT has in the Hebrew "deceived" for the Piel form of the verb.
Just because you don't like the way it is phrased does not mean it is wrong."

gb, flattery is saying something nice about someone else in order to try to get something out of them and it is insincere. But God cannot be deceived. He can be flattered, but not deceived. The nasb is flat out wrong here and you are deceived if you don't see that. And I certainly am not flattering you when I tell you you are deceived.

It is one of several totally stupid and senseless renderings found in the nasb that shows it to be a false witness.

Will K [/QB]

This reminds me of the whole "tempted" argument in another thread. Websters 1996 dictionary says that the word deceive can be "applicable to any kind of misrepresentation affecting faith or life." So, we see that the word deceived, though maybe not the best choice IMO, is no worse than the KJV reading saying that God tempted people. Will, you just can't have it both ways.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Will J. Kinney:
Is it time to put this mean-spirited thread out of its misery?
HankD

Hank, I think the only misery you are feeling is the realization that your case for no inspired, inerrant words of God on this earth, and every man is a scholar unto himself position is being bashed into little pieces and shown to be the nonsense of unbelief and pride of intellect that it really is.

The essential emptiness and vanity of your side is being revealed and this is the misery you now sense. Maybe Dr. Bob will once again step in and close this topic down like he did the last time, and save you any further discomfort.

Will K

Nice ad homimem attacks here. Where in the KJV did you get that attitude from?

Believe it or not, but we believe that each Christian has the responsibility to be a scholar - to search after Truth. I believe that wholeheartedly, and I believe that our faith can only grow through that pursuit. The fact is that you haven't really changed anyone's mind on the board - we are all learned enough to see that you are reciting the same old KJV rhetoric, which has all been answered ad nauseum, but you refuse to see it. The evidence is overwhelming, but you ignore it. That's fine. I'd rather you waste time here, talking about it, then be indoctrinating new believers in this false system of belief. The people here, by and large, know better.

To answer the original question, "What happens if you are not KJV only?" The answer, "You're probably a lot happier, a lot more fulfilled in your Christian walk, a better witness for Jesus Christ, and you have common sense and are using it wisely.

 

[HankD]

John 16:13,Proverbs 22:17-21,and 2 Corinthians 2:9-13. Now,Scripture(KJB)should be enough to resolve that problem for you;Or will you "yeah but..." that one away too?

NIV John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

NAS Proverbs 22
17 Incline your ear and hear the words of the wise, And apply your mind to my knowledge.
18 For it will be pleasant if you keep them within you, That they may be ready on your lips.
19 So that your trust may be in the LORD, I have taught you today, even you.
20 Have I not written to you excellent things Of counsels and knowledge,
22 Do not rob the poor because he is poor, Or crush the afflicted at the gate;

NKJV 2 Corinthinas 2
9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things.
10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ,
11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.
12 Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened to me by the Lord,
13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I did not find Titus my brother; but taking my leave of them, I departed for Macedonia.

OK. No problem.

HankD

 

[Anti-Alexandrian]

OK. No problem.

I meant 1stCorinthians 2:9-13...Gimmie a break,it was early..

 

[HankD]

Hank, I think the only misery you are feeling is the realization that your case for no inspired, inerrant words of God on this earth, and every man is a scholar unto himself position is being bashed into little pieces and shown to be the nonsense of unbelief and pride of intellect that it really is.

But Will, you are in the same boat, neither can you tell me which of the different editions of the KJV is the inspired, inerrant words of God on earth, whether the 1611 Edition with Apocrypha (referenced as Scripture) and marginal notes referencing that Apocrypha as Scripture or the 1769 Edition with hundreds of word differences compared to the 1611 Edition and the Apocrypha and marginal notes missing.

In addition the master archetype of the 1611 First Edition has disappeared so you can never know which edition (1611 or 1769) is the "inspired, inerrant" words of God since things which are different are not the same.

But, and by the way, the fact that the KJV "Bible Correctors" made corrections to the English text after the disappearance of the master shows that they depended upon something other than the English text that they corrected.

Each man is a scholar (or should be) unto his own
or so the KJB translators thought originally as they put translational options in the margins of the First Edition.

So also the Scripture:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

HankD

 

[HankD]

I meant 1stCorinthians 2:9-13...Gimmie a break,it was early..

OK

NKJV 1 Corinthians 2
9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Again, no problem.

HankD

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by skanwmatos:
Well, so much for honesty in this discussion.

One more time: read the first post in this discussion.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Will J. Kinney:
The essential emptiness and vanity of your side is being revealed and this is the misery you now sense. Maybe Dr. Bob will once again step in and close this topic down like he did the last time, and save you any further discomfort.

Before Dr. Bob does close down this thread, let me try this one last time: show me the Biblical justification for the complete rejection of all other English Versions of God's Holy Word.

 

[robycop3]

Will, you obviously haven't studied all the meanings of the Hebrew word "pathah", rendered 'flatter' in the KJV & 'deceive' in other versions. It means both of these, plus a few more things.

Common Christian sense knows God can be neither deceived nor flattered. He knows whether praise is genuine or false.

You'd have a point if 'deceived' were not a valid definition for "pathah", but seeing as how 'deceived' IS one of its definitions, your argument is incorrect.

 

[Anti-Alexandrian]

show me the Biblical justification for the complete rejection of all other English Versions of God's Holy Word.

It's in the same place that states to put scholarship and men's opinions over what God says;3rd Hellzapopin I believe...

 

[HankD]

It's in the same place that states to put scholarship and men's opinions over what God says;3rd Hellzapopin I believe...

Actually, you will find that the KJV translators believed that ALL translations were of worth.

So they said directly and by implication in the 1611 First Edition in the following Introductory sections:

I. The earlier English Translations.
II. The Bible of 1611.
III. The Later History of The Bible of 1611.


HankD