Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again~

[skypair]

TC, Allan,

Your answered via quote from J.I. Packer:

"The concept of God renovating the heart, the core of a person's being..."

God willing, no one SHOULD dispute this.

The initial work of believing is done in the heart (mind, emotions, and spirit) BUT the renovation/rebirth is to the soul. I recently heard it described as "commitment of the soul" to a new conscience -- a new Standard. As we grow in Christ, we constantly add to that initial "Standard" other standards by which we choose to conduct our lives. We choose them by the same process -- hear, consider, believe, commit, receive faith in that standard of behavior. Implant" is not the word. Nothing "sneaks by" the spirit/heart and into the soul/conscience. Everything you hear, see, taste,... is filtered through the mind ("testing the spirits") before it is committed to the soul.

This is after the pattern of Paul's "dying daily. That is, we died when we were born again -- we die continually to self and revive to God as we grow. This is why I make regeneration out to be a birth and a growth as well.

skypair

 

[Allan]

It has been discussed many times on the BB, but I don't remember the last thread that was specific to what Regeneration actually is and entails thereby establishing it as the Act BEFORE or OF Salvation.

I don't 'specifically' want this to be a C/A debate (though it will be by nature) but what I want to actaully discuss is -

1. What regeneration is?

2. What it does?

3. How does regeneration before salvation bring us into a union or approval with God?

(plz, refrain from using 'born-agian' AT PRESENT since there are 2 views of what the word entails and could get confusing till we establish our positions better within the thread. You may acknoweldge it as sysnonmous with what word you 'would' apply to it if you must at the outset. Thank you.)

Please leave aside the 'dead in sin' issue IF POSSIBLE (I don't want a 'dead in sin' thread but a thread examining the nature of 'Regeneration' and it's function with regard to the 3 above mentioned questions.

I will obviously start:

It would appear (at least to me) that when a person is regenerated before salvation, there is no need for 'faith' which scripture states brings salvation - Believe and be saved. Why? Because the person who is regenerated before salvation, according to some, is (1) given a new nature AND (2) now has the Holy Spirit indwelling them or residing in them (though not technically filling them) AND (3) that their relationship to and with God the Father has already been reconciled (thus the new nature and indwelling Spirit of GOd) AND (4) they are now IN Christ.

The problem in the person being 'reconciled' before faith is that the person who is reconciled is considered justified toward God and also sanctified by God making the person in a right relationship with God - Righteous. All this without faith ever being excersized nor repentance made. All of these are against what scripture states : that they are all imputed by or through Faith. (see below)

The scriptural mandate for one to have faith in order to be saved is no longer valid since the work of salvation is already done before repentence or Faith is even acknowledged. If this is true what we have is salvation BEFORE repentance and faith and not as says the scriptre "repent and beleive", "repent or you shall all likewise perish" and "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" et. (Mar 1:15, Luk 13:3,5 , Act 16:31, Rom 10:9 et.)

IF a person is regenerated by God before faith, they are in fact made alive unto God because they have been reconciled unto God by Christ's propitiation BEFORE faith. Therefore they are IN Christ.

As I previously stated, for this to be true:
1. Then they are ALREADY sanctified - or set apart for and by God ; being pure
2. and to be sanctified you must ALREADY be Justified
....a. that he WILL BE righteous (or in a right relationship with God).
3. And all of these are done by the Holy Spirit who is now indwelling the Non-BELIEVER (or one who has not yet believed).

But unfortunately the indwelling Holy Spirit, sanctification, justification, and righteousness are all imputed ONLY AFTER Faith is excersized.

It is my belief that the process of regeneration reveals that it IS the EVENT of Salvation which is of grace by faith and not the precurser to it. Otherwise you have the cart before the horse. Regeneration also only appears twice in scripture and it is never seen as that which is before salvation.

I believe you can not be regenerate (which MUST include justification and sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Spirit) before faith.
WHY?

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation which is imputed to us 'by faith' and both terms are describe as being born-again (the New Birth).

Discussion is now open...again :wavey:

 

[Allan]

It has been discussed many times on the BB, but I don't remember the last thread that was specific to what Regeneration actually is and entails thereby establishing it as the Act BEFORE or OF Salvation.

I don't 'specifically' want this to be a C/A debate (though it will be by nature) but what I want to actaully discuss is -

1. What regeneration is?

2. What it does?

3. How does regeneration before salvation bring us into a union or approval with God?

(plz, refrain from using 'born-agian' AT PRESENT since there are 2 views of what the word entails and could get confusing till we establish our positions better within the thread. You may acknoweldge it as sysnonmous with what word you 'would' apply to it if you must at the outset. Thank you.)

Please leave aside the 'dead in sin' issue IF POSSIBLE (I don't want a 'dead in sin' thread but a thread examining the nature of 'Regeneration' and it's function with regard to the 3 above mentioned questions.

I will obviously start:

It would appear (at least to me) that when a person is regenerated before salvation, there is no need for 'faith' which scripture states brings salvation - Believe and be saved. Why? Because the person who is regenerated before salvation, according to some, is (1) given a new nature AND (2) now has the Holy Spirit indwelling them or residing in them (though not technically filling them) AND (3) that their relationship to and with God the Father has already been reconciled (thus the new nature and indwelling Spirit of GOd) AND (4) they are now IN Christ.

The problem in the person being 'reconciled' before faith is that the person who is reconciled is considered justified toward God and also sanctified by God making the person in a right relationship with God - Righteous. All this without faith ever being excersized nor repentance made. All of these are against what scripture states : that they are all imputed by or through Faith. (see below)

The scriptural mandate for one to have faith in order to be saved is no longer valid since the work of salvation is already done before repentence or Faith is even acknowledged. If this is true what we have is salvation BEFORE repentance and faith and not as says the scriptre "repent and beleive", "repent or you shall all likewise perish" and "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" et. (Mar 1:15, Luk 13:3,5 , Act 16:31, Rom 10:9 et.)

IF a person is regenerated by God before faith, they are in fact made alive unto God because they have been reconciled unto God by Christ's propitiation BEFORE faith. Therefore they are IN Christ.

As I previously stated, for this to be true:
1. Then they are ALREADY sanctified - or set apart for and by God ; being pure
2. and to be sanctified you must ALREADY be Justified
....a. that he WILL BE righteous (or in a right relationship with God).
3. And all of these are done by the Holy Spirit who is now indwelling the Non-BELIEVER (or one who has not yet believed).

But unfortunately the indwelling Holy Spirit, sanctification, justification, and righteousness are all imputed ONLY AFTER Faith is excersized.

It is my belief that the process of regeneration reveals that it IS the EVENT of Salvation which is of grace by faith and not the precurser to it. Otherwise you have the cart before the horse. Regeneration also only appears twice in scripture and it is never seen as that which is before salvation.

I believe you can not be regenerate (which MUST include justification and sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Spirit) before faith.
WHY?

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation which is imputed to us 'by faith' and both terms are describe as being born-again (the New Birth).

Discussion is now open...again :wavey:

bumped up.

 

[skypair]

Allan,

I think the "milk" has soured. :laugh:

Check the "use by date" -- looks like 9-20-2007 to me.

Seriously, there are lots of folks at BB beginning to "hedge their bets" on faith then regeneration vs regeneration then faith. To me, they have been given a "pat answer" by the theologians and, like Bereans, trying to see the truth from scripture.

The truth to me is that we aren't regenerated without knowing it (which is how I have always seen the Calvinist side of regeneration precedes faith). That is, if God changed us, we would know about it after hearing something, after "processing" it mentally, and after -- as one Christian doctrine book put it --"knowing, assenting, and appropriating" it.

skypair

 

[Allan]

Allan,

I think the "milk" has soured. :laugh:

Check the "use by date" -- looks like 9-20-2007 to me.

Seriously, there are lots of folks at BB beginning to "hedge their bets" on faith then regeneration vs regeneration then faith. To me, they have been given a "pat answer" by the theologians and, like Bereans, trying to see the truth from scripture.

That's the point. People are talking about regeneration before faith and I would like to discuss it in light of a biblical debate so as to see the function, process, and therefore the timing of regeneration.

It is a 'pat' answer but I can't live with that when the bible declares some much to the contrary - IMO. If I'm wrong I would like to see it, but if I'm right...

I only see a win win situation. I'm wrong so I grow in christ in learning by being convinced by scripture, and if I'm right then I have shown my self approved UNTO GOD as a workman that needeth not to be ashamed. Rightly dividing the Word of Truth. I no fool as to think I know it all, but that which I know I have sought diligently to know through prayer, study, and more prayer. But that does not necessitate I'm right in all things nor they are right in their view.

Anyway I bring it up every now and again when the term starts to be used in the threads more than average.

 

[Allan]

Originally Posted by Allan
It has been discussed many times on the BB, but I don't remember the last thread that was specific to what Regeneration actually is and entails thereby establishing it as the Act BEFORE or OF Salvation.

I don't 'specifically' want this to be a C/A debate (though it will be by nature) but what I want to actaully discuss is -

1. What regeneration is?

2. What it does?

3. How does regeneration before salvation bring us into a union or approval with God?

(plz, refrain from using 'born-agian' AT PRESENT since there are 2 views of what the word entails and could get confusing till we establish our positions better within the thread. You may acknoweldge it as sysnonmous with what word you 'would' apply to it if you must at the outset. Thank you.)

Please leave aside the 'dead in sin' issue IF POSSIBLE (I don't want a 'dead in sin' thread but a thread examining the nature of 'Regeneration' and it's function with regard to the 3 above mentioned questions.

I will obviously start:

It would appear (at least to me) that when a person is regenerated before salvation, there is no need for 'faith' which scripture states brings salvation - Believe and be saved. Why? Because the person who is regenerated before salvation, according to the mainline Reformed view, is (1) given a new nature AND (2) now has the Holy Spirit indwelling them or residing in them (though not technically filling them) AND (3) that their relationship to and with God the Father has already been reconciled (thus the new nature and indwelling Spirit of GOd) AND (4) they are now IN Christ.

The problem in the person being 'reconciled' before faith is that the person who is reconciled is considered justified toward God and also sanctified by God making the person in a right relationship with God - Righteous. All this without faith ever being excersized nor repentance made. All of these are against what scripture states : that they are all imputed by or through Faith. (see below)

The scriptural mandate for one to have faith in order to be saved is no longer valid since the work of salvation is already done before repentence or Faith is even acknowledged. If this is true what we have is salvation BEFORE repentance and faith and not as says the scriptre "repent and beleive", "repent or you shall all likewise perish" and "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" et. (Mar 1:15, Luk 13:3,5 , Act 16:31, Rom 10:9 et.)

IF a person is regenerated by God before faith, they are in fact made alive unto God because they have been reconciled unto God by Christ's propitiation BEFORE faith. Therefore they are IN Christ.

As I previously stated, for this to be true:
1. Then they are ALREADY sanctified - or set apart for and by God ; being pure
2. and to be sanctified you must ALREADY be Justified
....a. that he WILL BE righteous (or in a right relationship with God).
3. And all of these are done by the Holy Spirit who is now indwelling the Non-BELIEVER (or one who has not yet believed).

But unfortunately the indwelling Holy Spirit, sanctification, justification, and righteousness are all imputed ONLY AFTER Faith is excersized.

It is my belief that the process of regeneration reveals that it IS the EVENT of Salvation which is of grace by faith and not the precurser to it. Otherwise you have the cart before the horse. Regeneration also only appears twice in scripture and it is never seen as that which is before salvation.

I believe you can not be regenerate (which MUST include justification and sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Spirit) before faith.
WHY?

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation which is imputed to us 'by faith' and both terms are describe as being born-again (the New Birth).

Discussion is now open...again

Since it is a discussion coming back up I figured - Why not bump this one back up

With respect to the above here is something to consider as well - Since the mainstream Reformed/ soveriegn grace doctrinal view states that prior to faith we are regenerated first. I agree with my brethren that regeneration is a word used for what has transpired to or in a person and this consists of being justified, sanctified, made righteous, indwelt with Holy Spirit and placed into Christ.
Thus here are some question stemming from my above previous post:

1. Are you or are you not justified 'by faith' (Rom 3:28)?

2. Are you or are you not sanctified 'by faith' (Acts 26:18)?

3. Are you or are you not indwelt with Holy Spirit 'by faith' (Gal 3:14)?

4. Are you or are you not made righteous 'by faith' (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)?

If the above are all biblically true then regeneration is an act that transpires 'after' faith, since all the above are aspects of the regeneration.

 

[zrs6v4]

I wasnt even a Christian yet when this thread was up. I would be interested in sharing my opinions, but Allan you are quite a few hours of study ahead of me, so please bear with me. this is a good thread.

 

[zrs6v4]

Since it is a discussion coming back up I figured - Why not bump this one back up

With respect to the above here is something to consider as well - Since the mainstream Reformed/ soveriegn grace doctrinal view states that prior to faith we are regenerated first. I agree with my brethren that regeneration is a word used for what has transpired to or in a person and this consists of being justified, sanctified, made righteous, indwelt with Holy Spirit and placed into Christ.
Thus here are some question stemming from my above previous post:

1. Are you or are you not justified 'by faith' (Rom 3:28)?

2. Are you or are you not sanctified 'by faith' (Acts 26:18)?

3. Are you or are you not indwelt with Holy Spirit 'by faith' (Gal 3:14)?

4. Are you or are you not made righteous 'by faith' (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)?

If the above are all biblically true then regeneration is an act that transpires 'after' faith, since all the above are aspects of the regeneration.

1. for sure. We are justified by faith or through faith
2. Yes, through faith we are sanctified and this begins at salvation and is carried out until glorification
3. Yes, we are sealed (Indwelt) after we turn and trust in Christ
4. Yes Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through/by faith

I think it is important to note that faith is obviously inseparable with repentance (I may sound elementary for a minute) and is that change whereby we are turning from everything (sin, independence, etc..) to trust, and abide in Christ for forgiveness. With this being true it is good to note that when we turn to and are simultaneously in Christ it is hard to distinguish when and where these things are immediately imputed to us by God. The fact is that for us to turn to God and see Him as He is, the Spirit must clearly do something that causes us to react in the way we did. Personally I am in a bind in what it is that the Spirit does that causes us to have a clear direction in our fogged hearts. Faith is in what we see and know, so it cant be the very first thing that happens. In any case the point when we see, hear, and understand is where some (as you know) see it as a rebirth, when it could easily be the Spirit's work that is much like rebirth. A clear biblical definition of rebirth would be really nice from you next and we can start there. John 3 would be a good place for you to start explaining. Oh and please don't go Greek on me without explaining, I am just now beginning to dabble in it. I struggled when I read through this thread about perfect tenses ahhhhh

 

[Winman]

The problem in the person being 'reconciled' before faith is that the person who is reconciled is considered justified toward God and also sanctified by God making the person in a right relationship with God - Righteous. All this without faith ever being excersized nor repentance made. All of these are against what scripture states : that they are all imputed by or through Faith. (see below)

This is the problem with the doctrine that one is first regenerated before they have the ability to repent or believe.

According to some, you can be walking down the street a God-hater. You have absolutely no desire for God, you are not one bit sorry for any sins you have committed, and are not resolved whatsoever to quit sinning. In fact, you love your sin.

Then whamo! You are regenerated. You are born again and have spiritual life. No repentance required beforehand, no faith required either.

I can see why this doctrine would be popular, seeing how you don't have to repent to be born again.

 

[zrs6v4]

According to some, you can be walking down the street a God-hater. You have absolutely no desire for God, you are not one bit sorry for any sins you have committed, and are not resolved whatsoever to quit sinning. In fact, you love your sin.

Then whamo! You are regenerated. You are born again and have spiritual life. No repentance required beforehand, no faith required either.

Yea another good analogy is a blind man is walking on the edge of the grand canyon and has no idea. He is completely desensatized to what a great danger he is in. Then all of a sudden his eyes are opened and upon seeing he slips and falls off of the edge. In great fear, helplessness, and desperation he grabs a rod and hangs on for his life. Now, the man definitely had a choice. He could have just remained calm and allowed himself to fall to his death, or he could grab for his only hope, the rod. The man represents the blind sinner given eyes, the canyon represents the fall of man, and the rod represents Jesus our Savior. Think about it.

I am not even speaking of regeneration, but do you see the power that the Holy Spirit has to reveal sin, righteousness, and judgment to a blind sinner to a degree that is irresistable?

I can see why this doctrine would be popular, seeing how you don't have to repent to be born again.

The very best part of doctrine is that we are saved by the grace of God. We dont do anything to earn salvation. We dont cash in our faith card nor do we repent to earn God's grace. We do nothing but turn to Christ by the grace of God in repentance and faith because our hearts have been opened/changed to properly respond to the Gospel.

I personally think there is genuine repentance and faith and I also think that there is meritorious repentance and faith. It all boils down to the position of the heart in the response. We must receive the Gospel on good soil or our running will prove to be vain.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Regeneration is neither a prelude to salvation, neither is it the act of salvation.

From the Easton Bible Dictionary, courtesy of Dictionary.com, comes the following definition (some emphases mine):

only found in Matt. 19:28 and Titus 3:5. This word literally means a "new birth." The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Matt. 19:28 the word is equivalent to the "restitution of all things" (Acts 3:21). In Titus 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1 John 3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17); being born again (John 3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2:6); a being quickened (2:1, 5). This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4). As to the nature of the change, it consists in the implanting of a new principle or disposition in the soul; the impartation of spiritual life to those who are by nature "dead in trespasses and sins." The necessity of such a change is emphatically affirmed in Scripture (John 3:3; Rom. 7:18; 8:7-9; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1; 4:21-24).

Regeneration is the task of the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Great One in Three.

Salvation and redemption are works of the Second Person, Christ.

The Father, the First Person, chose whom to spare, in Christ and through Christ, among an already fallen and already under condemnation race, to whom He had no obligation to spare and to save, doing so entirely on His Sovereign mercy.

Thus, in summary, the Father chose, the Son redeemed, and the Holy Spirit regenerates.

All the elect, scattered among God's creation, are already redeemed, none to be lost, but all the elect being also of the seed of Adam, are born unregenerate, separated from God by virtue of their dead Adamic nature, and each one will be regenerated, brought back to spiritual life, caused to be reborn, by the Holy Spirit, and only the Holy Spirit, apart from any means.

All OF God, none of man.
No glory at all to any man.
Sorry to disappoint those who want a share in this glory.

 

[Allan]

Regeneration is neither a prelude to salvation, neither is it the act of salvation.

Umm.. you have given an proof for such a statement. Since the aspects of regeneration are justification, sanctication, righteousness, and being in Christ, then it is clear it is salvation itself. You do know that salvation is a genernal term regarding all that has transpired that place one in a position of of a right standing and unity with God.

From the Easton Bible Dictionary, courtesy of Dictionary.com, comes the following definition (some emphases mine):

only found in Matt. 19:28 and Titus 3:5. This word literally means a "new birth." The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Matt. 19:28 the word is equivalent to the "restitution of all things" (Acts 3:21). In Titus 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1 John 3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17); being born again (John 3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2:6); a being quickened (2:1, 5). This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4). As to the nature of the change, it consists in the implanting of a new principle or disposition in the soul; the impartation of spiritual life to those who are by nature "dead in trespasses and sins." The necessity of such a change is emphatically affirmed in Scripture (John 3:3; Rom. 7:18; 8:7-9; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1; 4:21-24).

While I appreciate the defintion, nothing therein is denied or rejected by those who believe regeneration IS salvation and not before.

We also agree that regeneration orginates with God, or IOW - man does not regenerate himself. The regeneration is the act of God upon man when man believes (John 1:12,13). We also agree that regeneration is the imparting of spiritual life into those who are dead (seperated) "in" their trespasses and sins and that such is a change is emphaitcially necessary for a person to live unto Christ. Not to mention that regeneration is work done by the Holy Spirit to a person.

No one is spiritually alive (unitied with Christ) who is not 'in Christ', however the problem is that no one can be in Christ and still be in their sins and trespasses. What concord does light have with sin or righteousness with unrightousness? It is something that can not be.

All the elect, scattered among God's creation, are already redeemed,

This is a biblically false statement. We are not 'already' redeemed as the propitation of Christ is not applied to ANYONE prior to faith (Rom 3:25).
It is for this reason that God states we (believers) prior to salvation were by nature children of wrath.

none to be lost, but all the elect being also of the seed of Adam, are born unregenerate, separated from God by virtue of their dead Adamic nature, and each one will be regenerated, brought back to spiritual life, caused to be reborn, by the Holy Spirit, ..

I agree with this.

All OF God, none of man.
No glory at all to any man.

I agree.

Sorry to disappoint those who want a share in this glory.

This is simply a statement from ignorance.

 

[Allan]

1. for sure. We are justified by faith or through faith
2. Yes, through faith we are sanctified and this begins at salvation and is carried out until glorification
3. Yes, we are sealed (Indwelt) after we turn and trust in Christ
4. Yes Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through/by faith

I think it is important to note that faith is obviously inseparable with repentance (I may sound elementary for a minute) and is that change whereby we are turning from everything (sin, independence, etc..) to trust, and abide in Christ for forgiveness. With this being true it is good to note that when we turn to and are simultaneously in Christ it is hard to distinguish when and where these things are immediately imputed to us by God. The fact is that for us to turn to God and see Him as He is, the Spirit must clearly do something that causes us to react in the way we did. Personally I am in a bind in what it is that the Spirit does that causes us to have a clear direction in our fogged hearts. Faith is in what we see and know, so it cant be the very first thing that happens. In any case the point when we see, hear, and understand is where some (as you know) see it as a rebirth, when it could easily be the Spirit's work that is much like rebirth. A clear biblical definition of rebirth would be really nice from you next and we can start there. John 3 would be a good place for you to start explaining. Oh and please don't go Greek on me without explaining, I am just now beginning to dabble in it. I struggled when I read through this thread about perfect tenses ahhhhh

I'll come back to this tonight brother :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

I think it is important to note that faith is obviously inseparable with repentance

Is it? I'm not arguing, I'm honestly just asking.

What did James mean when he wrote, "Even the demons believe and shutter," if indeed faith (belief) is "inseparable?" Wasn't James' point in this chapter to say that faith can be separated from work (repentance, obedience, submission etc), but if it is then it is useless or "dead?"

The point I'm making is that there seems to be many people who believe in the story of Christ, but after considering the cost choose not to follow him. (i.e. the Rich Young Ruler) To argue that is not really "faith" seems to negate the point regarding the demons and their "shuttering." They really did believe that Jesus was Lord, just as many people in our world believe..."Lord, Lord did we not prophecy in your name and cast out many demons and he will say depart from me..."

This is why I seriously doubt the doctrine which teaches men are born unable to willingly believe without first being "regenerated." Anyone can believe, even the demons...but not everyone will choose to follow that in which they believe. Right?

 

[AresMan]

This is the problem with the doctrine that one is first regenerated before they have the ability to repent or believe.

I believe that regeneration and faith are chronologically simultaneous, just as pulling a trigger and firing a projectile are simultaneous; however, one is the logical trigger to the other. You believe that faith is the trigger for regeneration. I believe that regeneration is the trigger to faith.

According to some, you can be walking down the street a God-hater. You have absolutely no desire for God, you are not one bit sorry for any sins you have committed, and are not resolved whatsoever to quit sinning. In fact, you love your sin.

Then whamo! You are regenerated. You are born again and have spiritual life. No repentance required beforehand, no faith required either.

Not according to moi.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat [regenerated]he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


God does not regenerate independent of His own Word. However, the Holy Spirit sovereignly uses the Word of God to regenerate the elect. The preaching of the Gospel is absolutely necessary; however, God gets the full credit for the fact that anyone "dead in sins" actually is saved in every aspect of the matter.

I can see why this doctrine would be popular, seeing how you don't have to repent to be born again.

All who are "born again" repent. Repentance must be preached to all without distinction.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

However, we should also understand that repentance and faith themselves come from the sovereign work of God.

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Act 13:49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Phi 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

 

[zrs6v4]

Is it? I'm not arguing, I'm honestly just asking.

Yea I don't believe that you can have repentance without faith, or have faith without repentance. If you repent and don't trust Christ, then what are you turning to, and if you trust Christ and do not turn to Him then there is an issue as well. So I would say if you tell someone to repent or tell them to trust in Christ the result should be the same.

What did James mean when he wrote, "Even the demons believe and shutter," if indeed faith (belief) is "inseparable?" Wasn't James' point in this chapter to say that faith can be separated from work (repentance, obedience, submission etc), but if it is then it is useless or "dead?"

true saving faith and repentance produce fruit. Demons obviously dont get mercy and a eternally damned for their rebellion. I dont think you can have saving faith and not turn to Christ. I didnt read that passage but maybe when I get time and you think it necessary Ill comment on it.

The point I'm making is that there seems to be many people who believe in the story of Christ, but after considering the cost choose not to follow him. (i.e. the Rich Young Ruler) To argue that is not really "faith" seems to negate the point regarding the demons and their "shuttering." They really did believe that Jesus was Lord, just as many people in our world believe..."Lord, Lord did we not prophecy in your name and cast out many demons and he will say depart from me..."

Yea again an intelectual constent is good, but if that is left alone and the person remains unchanged and not submitted to the Lordship of Christ there is a great danger of a vain consent. I dont think the rich young ruler was converted from what we are told. Those who cry Lord Lord in the end ran in vain and their faith was not real. They fell into self deception in some way. Works arent a part of salvation, but true salvation brings faith the beginning of a repentant life and fruit. If the life is missing any of these there is an issue.

This is why I seriously doubt the doctrine which teaches men are born unable to willingly believe without first being "regenerated." Anyone can believe, even the demons...but not everyone will choose to follow that in which they believe. Right?

This may be a bad analogy- I offer you a million bucks and all you have to do is come get it. You say, "yea Zach I believe you, but I really don't have time to come get it I am busy working." I really think when someone sees and believes truly, then they will respond. I am not speaking for every case, b/c God has various purposes in what happens. I will just leave it at this- I would worry about someone who professes faith in Christ and is unchanged and doesn't react on it. Mathew 13:44 is a good picture, or even the parable of the sower.

Again Demons are a different subject, but for us I only think there is one true kind of faith and that is saving faith from God. There are a million ways this can play out. There is no in the middle, we are worshipers by nature and we either bear good fruit or bear bad fruit.

 

[Skandelon]

This may be a bad analogy- I offer you a million bucks and all you have to do is come get it. You say, "yea Zach I believe you, but I really don't have time to come get it I am busy working." I really think when someone sees and believes truly, then they will respond.

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

They are being "offered a million dollars" so to speak and yet they are unwilling.

Again Demons are a different subject, but for us I only think there is one true kind of faith and that is saving faith from God. There are a million ways this can play out. There is no in the middle, we are worshipers by nature and we either bear good fruit or bear bad fruit.

Didn't Peter believe in Jesus when he denied him three times? Do you believe in him when you lie, lust or sin? Belief doesn't mean we always follow what we believe...right?

 

[AresMan]

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

They are being "offered a million dollars" so to speak and yet they are unwilling.

This verse is way too often taken out of context. The verse is not saying that God was trying to gather certain people but could not because those same people were unwilling.

The context of the verse is the woes to the religious leaders. Jesus said He would gather "your children" together, but "you" were unwilling. Compare this verse with one from the context:

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

He told them that they influence others with their hypocrisy:

Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

He also told them that they were of the same mind as those who killed the prophets:

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: [the apostles and Christians]
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

This is the context of verse 37. Jerusalem was where the Temple was. Jerusalem was where the religious leaders acted. Jerusalem in this context was a metonymy for the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus was lamenting their hypocritical influence that affected others. How often would I have gathered your children, but you were unwilling. You stood in the way.

Didn't Peter believe in Jesus when he denied him three times? Do you believe in him when you lie, lust or sin? Belief doesn't mean we always follow what we believe...right?

Yes, but later Peter repented of this. This was not the characteristic of his life. When the cock crew he understood that what he did was wrong.

 

[Skandelon]

This is the context of verse 37. Jerusalem was where the Temple was. Jerusalem was where the religious leaders acted. Jerusalem in this context was a metonymy for the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus was lamenting their hypocritical influence that affected others. How often would I have gathered your children, but you were unwilling. You stood in the way.

How is that interpretation any better? How do they "stand in the way" of your so called "effectual/irresistible grace?"

Yes, but later Peter repented of this. This was not the characteristic of his life. When the cock crew he understood that what he did was wrong.

I understand that, but it was not my point. My point was that someone can be believing in Christ while still choosing to sin or rebel. Though they may repent, it doesn't negate the fact that they can rebel while still having faith in Christ.

 

[Allan]

GUYS !!

This thread has a specific purpose and is spelled out in detail, PLEASE, if you wish to debate on this topic keep with OP. I know threads get derailed all the time but I wish to at least maintain some continuity so we can better understand not what regeneration is (we all agree what it is, or at least what transpires according to it) but what is trying to be discussed is first HOW it happens and then WHEN this happens. If we are a new creation in Christ, old things are passed away .. all thing are now new - what does this mean has had to have happened?

The 'how' is vitally important in this.
Is regeneration the work of the Holy Spirit? Yes, we agree here but when and how does it come to be?

Does the aspects of regeneration include justification, sanctification, made righteous, and being made alive which is ONLY 'In Christ'? Yes, to all, and Cal/reformed brethren agree with on these.

Since these are all aspects of regeneration and all make up what regeneration is (born anew or a new creation), when do these aspects transpire or come into being so that regeneration is said to be a completed act?

I have already stated my case previously.