Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again~

[Skandelon]

GUYS !!

This thread has a specific purpose and is spelled out in detail, PLEASE, if you wish to debate on this topic keep with OP. I know threads get derailed all the time but I wish to at least maintain some continuity so we can better understand not what regeneration is (we all agree what it is, or at least what transpires according to it) but what is trying to be discussed is first HOW it happens and then WHEN this happens.

With all due respect Brother, some of what you see as "derailing" are questions and answers with regard to responses to your OP. I understand your frustration since many of the threads I've started have yet to be answered, but I don't think anyone is purposefully avoiding the OP here.

For example, if you followed my posts back you will see that my discussions center around those who believe who clearly are not regenerated.

Now, if you mean by this rebuke that you don't want anyone to have any discussions with anyone except you about the OP, then just say so. It's your CHOICE. :tongue3:

 

[Allan]

With all due respect Brother, some of what you see as "derailing" are questions and answers with regard to responses to your OP. I understand your frustration since many of the threads I've started have yet to be answered, but I don't think anyone is purposefully avoiding the OP here.

For example, if you followed my posts back you will see that my discussions center around those who believe who clearly are not regenerated.

Now, if you mean by this rebuke that you don't want anyone to have any discussions with anyone except you about the OP, then just say so. It's your CHOICE. :tongue3:

No, and with the same respect, you guys are simiply talking 'about' regeneration in a general sense and who is and is not or can and can not be regenerate, but this is not what the OP is asking for. This same subject you guys are engaging in 'currently' is being talked about in various others threads, and it is the same stuff rehashed over and over. I am trying to break this down so we can identify when we become a new creation, and what has transpired to make us such. It is in this we find the answer to what regeneration really is and thus when it transpires. I'm not saying things can't be talked about but I have been trying for 3 years on this thread alone to engage 'this' type of discussion and it is typically avoided. (check the dates at the beginning ) Yet it is 'this' type of examination that 'I believe' refutes regeneration being before faith.
This Op is asking:

1. What regeneration is?

2. What it does?

3. How does regeneration before salvation bring us into a union or approval with God?

 

[Allan]

Please understand that I DO welcome the recent activity and discussions however I only wish to keep it relevent to the OP's questions as much as possible.

 

[Skandelon]

No, and with the same respect, you guys are simiply talking 'about' regeneration in a general sense and who is and is not or can and can not be regenerate, but this is not what the OP is asking for. This same subject you guys are engaging in 'currently' is being talked about in various others threads, and it is the same stuff rehashed over and over. I am trying to break this down so we can identify when we become a new creation, and what has transpired to make us such. It is in this we find the answer to what regeneration really is and thus when it transpires. I'm not saying things can't be talked about but I have been trying for 3 years on this thread alone to engage 'this' type of discussion and it is typically avoided. (check the dates at the beginning ) Yet it is 'this' type of examination that 'I believe' refutes regeneration being before faith.
This Op is asking:

Yes, I understand that Allan, but in zrs6v4's and AresMan's response to these questions they made several assertions and claims with which I and others took issue. If you wish for us not to reply to those posts, or give our input, I can respect that regardless of how "unrealistic" I might think that is. And now out of respect I will be quiet...


Answer these questions guys:

1. What regeneration is?

2. What it does?

3. How does regeneration before salvation bring us into a union or approval with God?

 

[Allan]

Yes, I understand that Allan, but in zrs6v4's and AresMan's response to these questions they made several assertions and claims with which I and others took issue. If you wish for us not to reply to those posts, or give our input, I can respect that regardless of how "unrealistic" I might think that is. And now out of respect I will be quiet...


Answer these questions guys:

Skandelon, your missunderstanding me. I don't mind the discussion BUT bring it back to what the OP is asking because 'that' is the crux of the matter.

Example.. If they are regenerate prior to faith, then they are spirituall alive. So where in scripture are we ever declared alive without being IN Christ first?
If death means spiritual seperation from God then life means what?
If the regenerate are alive and are in Christ prior to faith then how can sin be in unity with a holy God?

See what I mean?

 

[The Archangel]

Hey there Allan! I hope you are doing well...let me take a shot at the questions you asked:

1. What regeneration is?

Regeneration is a sovereign act of God whereby He replaces our stone-dead, unresponsive hearts with a "heart of flesh."

2. What it does?

Regeneration makes the sinner who is unwilling (and therefore unable) to respond to God willing.

Many seek to say that God's work of regeneration is some type of spiritual rape--this is absolutely absurd. God does not drag the unwilling into the Kingdom as they kick and scream. Rather, He makes the unwilling willing and they gladly run towards the Kingdom.

3. How does regeneration before salvation bring us into a union or approval with God?

I don't think I'd talk about regeneration bringing us into "approval" with God. I do think, though, it does bring us into union with God...perhaps approval??? I'd buy the approval idea if we understand what God does (as the Bible says) as adoption. In adoption, the adoptee doesn't try to impress the adopter so as to be adopted. The picture of adoption is that God is the adopter and He chooses whom He will adopt as sons and daughters.

Having said that, to get back to the question, regeneration, I would say, is the mechanism by and through which salvation actually occurs.

Given the words that you use--union and approval--I think union is appropriate but it's seen (especially in Ephesians 2) as happening at the moment of the Crucifixion. In some way, as Ephesians says, we were there "in Christ" as He died so that, in some way, we died too. But, that's probably a different discussion. So, the union, technically, happened long ago at the Cross.

Approval I don't think is an appropriate word, because it suggests it's something we do first to gain God's approval. I would say that God, for His own good pleasure, chooses to set His affection on certain persons.

Returning to the adoption picture, this fits quite well. The adopter sets His affection on the adoptee. The adoptee doesn't try to earn the affections of the adopter.

Anyway, that's my thoughts.

Many blessings to you!

The Archangel

 

[Allan]

Hey there Allan! I hope you are doing well...let me take a shot at the questions you asked:

Well Hello! I am doing quite well and youself?
Actually I take that back, I'm at work and bored 'at the moment' but still doing quite well

1. What regeneration is?

Regeneration is a sovereign act of God whereby He replaces our stone-dead, unresponsive hearts with a "heart of flesh."

Agreed.

2. What it does?

Regeneration makes the sinner who is unwilling (and therefore unable) to respond to God willing.

Many seek to say that God's work of regeneration is some type of spiritual rape--this is absolutely absurd. God does not drag the unwilling into the Kingdom as they kick and scream. Rather, He makes the unwilling willing and they gladly run towards the Kingdom.

I understand that and will not go there.

Second, How does "Regeneration make the sinner who is unwilling (and therefore unable) to respond to God willing"?

IOW - What transpires to make this person willing?
(this is really what the 3 question is supposed to be asking)

3. How does regeneration before salvation bring us into a union or approval with God?

I don't think I'd talk about regeneration bringing us into "approval" with God. I do think, though, it does bring us into union with God...perhaps approval???

Yeah, the words I used were words used when those of the Reformed view spoke of it or they used them while debating on the subject. But that aside since it really doesn't matter...

How does act of regeneration bring us into union with God?
And, what exactly does this union entail?

Also.. does not scripture state that we are unified with Christ 'by faith'?

I'd buy the approval idea if we understand what God does (as the Bible says) as adoption. In adoption, the adoptee doesn't try to impress the adopter so as to be adopted. The picture of adoption is that God is the adopter and He chooses whom He will adopt as sons and daughters.

I would by it to if God chose us and faith was not needed to be saved.
An adopted child has no choice in matter of who is adopting them. If they are older they can be asked if they would 'like' to be adopted by the potential partent(s) but it really has no bearing on the adoption if the people desire to adopt that particular person.
So I guess my question here is if a person is a child of God what need is there for faith unto salvation?
Or justification or sanctification?

Having said that, to get back to the question, regeneration, I would say, is the mechanism by and through which salvation actually occurs.

Now we're cooking :laugh:
What is involved in this 'mechanism' by and through which salvation actaully occurs.

Given the words that you use--union and approval--I think union is appropriate but it's seen (especially in Ephesians 2) as happening at the moment of the Crucifixion. In some way, as Ephesians says, we were there "in Christ" as He died so that, in some way, we died too. But, that's probably a different discussion. So, the union, technically, happened long ago at the Cross.

No it is not really a different discussion but it seems still relevent. If our union happened at the cross where the propitiation of Chrsit was offered unto God for sin, then why are we not born saved?
Why does scripture state the propitiation is obtained or applied through faith (Rom 3:25)?

Returning to the adoption picture, this fits quite well. The adopter sets His affection on the adoptee. The adoptee doesn't try to earn the affections of the adopter.

This is related to my point earlier, if this is true that by our adoption we being brought into unity or made one with God (thus unified) prior to faith, then what is the need for faith? If was are already God's children and one with the Father, what reason must we believe that we might be saved?

Additionally - when do you believe we are 'become a new creation', and what exactly does this entail?

Thank you for some great interaction, and to the others as well - Thank you.

 

[Amy.G]

Listen guys!

I've known Allan for several years and let me tell you, he's one tough dude! I'd do what he says if I were you! Got that?


:tongue3:

:laugh:

:saint:

 

[Allan]

Listen guys!

I've known Allan for several years and let me tell you, he's one tough dude! I'd do what he says if I were you! Got that?


:tongue3:

:laugh:

:saint:

Did it really sound that bad?

I'm sorry guys, it wasn't intended to be as harsh as it apparently was conveyed.

 

[Amy.G]

Did it really sound that bad?

I'm sorry guys, it wasn't intended to be as harsh as it apparently was conveyed.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!! I was bugging you. Now I feel bad that I made you feel bad! :laugh:

 

[pinoybaptist]

Umm.. you have given an proof for such a statement. Since the aspects of regeneration are justification, sanctication, righteousness, and being in Christ, then it is clear it is salvation itself. You do know that salvation is a genernal term regarding all that has transpired that place one in a position of of a right standing and unity with God.

No, Allan, with all due respects. Salvation and regeneration are two different things. Salvation itself has two aspects. Eternal, which was authored by Christ, finished by Him, and therefore by which He was given a Name above every other name. (Hebrews 5:9;Hebrews 9:12; Philippians 2:5-10; 2 Timothy 2:10), and the gospelly one, which depends on the conduct, instruction received, and obedience of the elect sinner, and results in either blessing or chastisement.

Many of these texts are scattered all over the Old Testament directed to national Israel, which by virtue of its origin, and having been created out of the loins of one man, Abraham, picture and represent the True Israel, of whom Christ is the firstborn,
and therefore God's dealings with this picture of His saints were recorded in Scripture for the learning and admonition of His New Testament saints, (Romans 15:4; !corinthians 10:11). Unfortunately, many of these texts, both in the Old and New Testaments, are and have been continually taken out of context and taught as part of eternal salvation, thus resulting in unrightfully dividing the word, and many so-called Bible teachers of today, both in radio and denominationally, will not back out of their unrightful division of the word and understandably so.

Regeneration, by its very name, is a bringing back to life, and in fact, such a concept is in the definition provided. John the Baptist was regenerate from the womb, and his whole life showed it. Conversion follows regeneration, but redemption precedes them both. God will not regenerate that which is not His.

While I appreciate the defintion, nothing therein is denied or rejected by those who believe regeneration IS salvation and not before.

Then you have merely skimmed thru the definitions.

We also agree that regeneration orginates with God, or IOW - man does not regenerate himself. The regeneration is the act of God upon man when man believes (John 1:12,13). We also agree that regeneration is the imparting of spiritual life into those who are dead (seperated) "in" their trespasses and sins and that such is a change is emphaitcially necessary for a person to live unto Christ. Not to mention that regeneration is work done by the Holy Spirit to a person.

If we agree on these, then I guess the question is whom does God regenerate then.

No one is spiritually alive (unitied with Christ) who is not 'in Christ', however the problem is that no one can be in Christ and still be in their sins and trespasses. What concord does light have with sin or righteousness with unrightousness? It is something that can not be.

That is why there is chastisement and witholding of blessing. The disobedient is chastised, the obedient is blessed. I've already pointed out this principle in preceding replies in this post. Also, your statement presupposes that the child of God is under gospel instruction, a member of a gospel church, and is aware of true and undiluted teachings. The question is : are you sure that every gospel teaching being taught out there is true and correct, and that every child of God is under correct gospel teaching ?

This is a biblically false statement. We are not 'already' redeemed as the propitation of Christ is not applied to ANYONE prior to faith (Rom 3:25).

And your statement shows your unbelief in the security of the finished work of Christ, unfortunately. If you examine yourself very well, and with all honesty, your security lies in your faith in Christ, not in the finished work of Christ and on Christ Himself. Now, you may get back at me that I stated something false and presumptive, but peeling the skin off your statement, those are the bones I see.
There is no amount of faith, small or great, one can add to Calvary.
Putting one's faith in Christ is for the redeemed who are in the grip of paganism and Judaism, in Christ and the early church's time, and for those who are in the grip of false religions and false creeds in our time, and that faith justifies them before God, and before man.
However, their eternal salvation stands firmly rooted in the finished work of Christ and the spilt blood of the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world, in the eternal sense, and at Calvary, in time.

It is for this reason that God states we (believers) prior to salvation were by nature children of wrath.

And that is true. All God's children are by natural birth descended from Adam and therefore by nature disobedient and children of disobedience, but Christ's blood covered all their sins and He redeemed them from the bondage into which the first Adam had brought them by His disobedience
and the Holy Spirit quickened them and quickens them while they are yet dead in their sins. Read the Scripture you alluded to.

This is simply a statement from ignorance.

Whatever.

 

[Allan]

No, Allan, with all due respects. Salvation and regeneration are two different things.

Not if one sets down and examines what scripture says about them

Salvation itself has two aspects. Eternal, which was authored by Christ, finished by Him, and therefore by which He was given a Name above every other name. (Hebrews 5:9;Hebrews 9:12; Philippians 2:5-10; 2 Timothy 2:10), and the gospelly one, which depends on the conduct, instruction received, and obedience of the elect sinner, and results in either blessing or chastisement.

Sorry, but there is not now nor ever has been in church history any such doctrine or teaching from scripture that has been ascerted and or held in the main as what you and others PB'ers present. And with all due respect there is no real or valid reason to continue this discussion on 'this subject' because not only I but also those Cals/Reformed (or better those who hold to the sovereign grace doctrines as well) do not and will not be able to find any common ground with you so as to properly discuss this topic. Your view is diametrically different or maybe better, distinct from all others.

All main line views but that of the PB's either hold or have held to the scriptural position that regeneration is the vital part in/of our eternal salvation and not a 'gospelly' or temporal/timely one. IOW - there are none who are God's or even of God, who are not of faith in Christ Jesus. No one has been redeemed outside of faith (Rom 3:25) and no has eternal salvation (life) apart from faith in Christ.

I know your view and I am one who frequently gives PB's credit for holding to a true monergist view, but to continue the discussion I believe would be fruitless because we would be talking past each other as PB's see,understand regeneration as something completely different from the rest of us and for a completely different purpose. However I do thank you at least for interacting on it.

 

[kyredneck]

Excellent articulation Pinoy.

 

[Allan]

1. for sure. We are justified by faith or through faith
2. Yes, through faith we are sanctified and this begins at salvation and is carried out until glorification
3. Yes, we are sealed (Indwelt) after we turn and trust in Christ
4. Yes Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through/by faith

Great, we will come back to this

The fact is that for us to turn to God and see Him as He is, the Spirit must clearly do something that causes us to react in the way we did.

Here we all agree and that is why I would like to distinguish what it either is or at the very least, what it is not.

Personally I am in a bind in what it is that the Spirit does that causes us to have a clear direction in our fogged hearts. Faith is in what we see and know, so it cant be the very first thing that happens.

Don't go throwing the cart before the horse.
Let's not saying it isn't 'something' when we aren't sure yet just what is going on.

In any case the point when we see, hear, and understand is where some (as you know) see it as a rebirth, when it could easily be the Spirit's work that is much like rebirth.

Ok, so here we have 2 potential views that are 'thus far' acceptable to you.
1. It is work of the Spirit regarding rebirth.
2. It is something 'like' the rebirth, but it is still a work of the Holy Spirit to cause them to see, hear, and understand.

A clear biblical definition of rebirth would be really nice from you next and we can start there.

The Holman Bible Dictionary states this:

Biblical Terms The term regeneration (palingenesia) appears in Titus 3:5 as a description of the spiritual change which baptism symbolizes. The idea of regeneration is also conveyed by the use of other terms related to the idea of birth. Jesus referred to regeneration when he told Nicodemus (John 3:3) that he must be “born again” (gennao anothen). The term born again may also be translated as “born from above.” This translation emphasizes the sovereign role of God in bringing about the experience of regeneration. In John 1:13 the term born (gennao) refers to the act of regeneration. In 1 Peter 1:23 another Greek word (anagennao) receives the translation “born again.” All of these words describe the complete spiritual change which occurs when Christ enters the life of an individual

The idea of regeneration also appears in other figures of speech which refer to concepts in addition to birth. When Paul described those in Christ as a “new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17 NIV), he was referring to the act of regeneration.

As shown above this new birth is also refered to as a 'new creation' as both refer to a supernatural change in which the person is no longer the same as they were prior to this regenerating work of God. And it is from this (new creation) where we find the most precise definition - old things are no more, behold (or take note) all things have become or are now made new.

John 3 would be a good place for you to start explaining

Jesus when speaking to Nickodemus, stated that you can not see/percieve the Kingdom of God unless you are born again. This word -perceive- is important because it does not mean you can't understand, but that you don't know what 'is going on in and with the Kingdom of God' unless you are born again. This is also why He states, not only can you know what is going on around you regardign the Kingdom of God but that you can not enter it so that you can know what is going on.

Remember that Nickodemus was a leader and teacher of Israel and like others within his group knew that Jesus could not do what He was doing without God being with Him - In a relationship with Jesus like the Prophets and saints of old. But they and Nick was in the dark as to what God was and is doing through Jesus. They could not figure it out themselves. This is the truth which Jesus was explaining as no one but someone who is born again can see/perceive what God was doing (Kingdom of God) and not no one can enter, IN ORDER TO perceive, the Kingdom of God unless he is first born again.
This, I believe, is why Jesus speaks about perceiving first and entering second, because the leaders thought they were already apart of God's kingdom and as such should know or at least come to understand what God is up to. Yet Jesus tells them not only can they not perceive it but explains why not, because they are not even IN the Kingdom that they might see it. It was impossible for a man to see in depth a Kingdom which he was not in much less apart of.
I know many reformed scholars like to state the passage about 'the wind blows where ever it chooses' is about the regenerating work of the Spirit however I believe context does not bear this supposition out. I believe context illistrates that what Jesus was speaking about there is a continuation of helping Nickodemus understand why he as a spiritual leader of Israel was still in the dark about what God was doing. I do agree that the wind represents the Spirit but not regarding regeneration but as was being spoken of, the work of the Kingdom.

The Spirit goes where ever He wishes to, you hear it, but you do not (watch now) know where it is coming from or going to. And it is for THIS reason ol' Nick asks "how can this be"? I mean he was spiritual leader and teacher of Israel how could he NOT be apart of the Kingdom and thus apart of what God was doing and knowing what was going on.

Then Jesus tells him an interesting thing, If I told you of earthly or natural things you would not believe me, so why should you believe me if I were to tell you spiritual things. Why would Nick NOT believe Jesus if Jesus told him of natural things (non-spiritual). And if he wouldn't beleive those worldly things which the natural man can grasp on his own, why would Nick think he would believe spiritual ones.

This is why Jesus also uses the illistration of Moses lifting up the serpent so that anyone who wished to look upon it would be healed from the serpent bites they had received (a natural truth that physically did happen). And just as the serpent was lifted up for all who was afflicted that they might live (pass from certain death to life), in the same manner the Son of Man must be lifted up (spiritual truth that will spiritually happen).

But still what needs to be remembered here is that being born again/from above/new birth speaks only that which either has or has not happend and not acatully to the what and how it transpired.

Now, I have gone pretty much through chapter 3 of John but let us look at the 'new creation' in which old things are passed away behold all things have become new.
1. What constitutes old things?
1b. Is it not sins and transgressions?

2. How are they passed away or removed?
2b. Are not our sins removed through the shed blood of Christ?
2c. Is not this shed blood also known as the propitiation for our sins applied only through faith? (Rom 3:25)

3. And what has to have happened in order for that creation to be stated as 'new' (without taint or blemish)
3b. Does not payment for the penalty of sin (propitiation) justify us before a Holy God and set us free from that condemnation?
3c. And does not our justification (being made free from judgment through a substitute) cause us to be clean, without taint or blemish on our account against God?
3d. If this is so, are we then not sanctified (seperated) unto God being now freed from sin, cleansed from it's soiling, and placed in good standing/relation with God or better in unity with God?

Oh and please don't go Greek on me without explaining, I am just now beginning to dabble in it. I struggled when I read through this thread about perfect tenses ahhhhh

As for the Greek :laugh: I don't think it needs come into play to much :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

Excellent articulation Pinoy.

I agree he articulates himself very well, but unfortunately no one but PB'ers will accept his rendition of salvation and regeneration as it has never been a mainline doctrine the church has ever held. The only other group whom I know was similar to your view in this were the Hyper-Cals that held the elect are born already saved they just haven't realized it yet. THe distinction though is that all the elect will eventually realize it and stand in faith unto Christ the Lord before their death.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Thanks for your civil manner in discussion, Allan, I sincerely appreciate that.
But I don't think only PB's will agree with me, since neither you nor I can speak for everybody else.
I do know that I have met Christians who are in other denominations who feel they are being taught doctrine from an incorrectly divided word and so are, by themselves, rethinking their position on the finished work of Christ, in regeneration, and even the various do's and dont's in the Bible in relation to their eternal standing.
My reference point has always been Christ, His Person, His Deity, His Humanity, and most of all, His work of salvation, that being the case I have yet to come across a verse in the Bible pertaining to the eternal salvation and redemption of God's people that even implies it is unfinished, and ongoing.
The two passages in Hebrews where we find the words eternal salvation and eternal redemption and where the statements certainly pertain to all of God's elect here in time, are both written in past tenses..
Again, in Hebrews, in the same passage where the words eternal redemption are found, the writer portrays the Redeemer as having finished His work, in the act of sitting down at the right hand of power, having entered glory by His shed blood.
The Savior Himself cried out, "it is finished".
If it is, and the elements of redemption among others include the blood shed at Calvary, then all to whom that blood pertains have had their sins washed away, and therefore, the next step is regeneration, since in regeneration, a new nature is added to their old nature thereby enabling them to make choices between obedience or disobedience, faithfulness or unfaithfulness, all of which receive their natural consequences from the Father here on earth.
Therefore, very clearly, the work of eternal redemption is complete and over, and that being the work of the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, then it follows that all that is needed is a quickening of His people, which is the task of the Holy Spirit, not of the Son, or of the Father.
So regeneration is not a prelude to salvation, neither is it salvation itself, unless we are speaking of gospel, or time salvation, in which case regeneration precedes conversion, and conversion preceding "good works".

 

[Johnv]

Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again~

It's a "chicken or egg" question. We tend to think of spiritual things existing on a linear timeline. Regeneration is one of those things that, imo, doesn't exist on a timeline, and therefore does not come before or after something else.

 

[zrs6v4]

Allan- There are some things we agree on and some that we disagree on in John Chapter 3. I can expound if you want? Anyway the problem with the doctrine of regeneration is that there are so few mentions of it beyond John 3.

1. What constitutes old things? I would say our old self and old flesh before rebirth. This would include sin and unrighteousness.
1b. Is it not sins and transgressions? Yes, I think Paul is not only speaking to born again believers but also justified people here. In this case the born again believers have already been justified. The key is that if anyone is "in Christ" then he is presently a new creation. I do not think the order here is proper to say that regeneration is before or after justification. In this context this is speaking of a people who are counted righteous and are born again already. but please state your case as I am interested


2. How are they passed away or removed? ^
2b. Are not our sins removed through the shed blood of Christ? yes we are justified by faith in Christ
2c. Is not this shed blood also known as the propitiation for our sins applied only through faith? yes Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and this comes through faith.

3. And what has to have happened in order for that creation to be stated as 'new' (without taint or blemish)? You will have to do some explaining as to how you came up with this. I think you are drawing your conclusion from the Corinthians passage, right? I would say a new creation is one who has been born of God through the word of God.
3b. Does not payment for the penalty of sin (propitiation) justify us before a Holy God and set us free from that condemnation? yes it does
3c. And does not our justification (being made free from judgment through a substitute) cause us to be clean, without taint or blemish on our account against God? yes
3d. If this is so, are we then not sanctified (seperated) unto God being now freed from sin, cleansed from it's soiling, and placed in good standing/relation with God or better in unity with God? yes. I do understand your logic, so please keep explaining. This is why I am between 2 views. Let me try to explain your view to see if Im reading you correctly.

You are arguing that regeneration and the sealing of the Holy Spirit both fall into the same category, regeneration, and sealing are after faith. To be set apart, justified, righteous, and born again would all mean a New Creation. You are arguing that we cannot be a New Creation without being indwelt, justified, righteous, and adopted as sons, correct?

 

[Allan]

Allan- There are some things we agree on and some that we disagree on in John Chapter 3. I can expound if you want? Anyway the problem with the doctrine of regeneration is that there are so few mentions of it beyond John 3.

Actually, there is quite a few places that speak both of and to it but they typically refer to the current state of being of a believer - It is from these passages we know a person who is regenerate is justified, sanctified, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and placed into Christ.
There is however only a few that speaks of a person prior to regeneration or specifically 'at' or being regenerate.

1. What constitutes old things? I would say our old self and old flesh before rebirth. This would include sin and unrighteousness.

I agree

1b. Is it not sins and transgressions?
Yes, I think Paul is not only speaking to born again believers but also justified people here. In this case the born again believers have already been justified. The key is that if anyone is "in Christ" then he is presently a new creation. I do not think the order here is proper to say that regeneration is before or after justification. In this context this is speaking of a people who are counted righteous and are born again already. but please state your case as I am interested

Ok, but no where in scripture will you find a regenerate person who is not justified. Titus 3:5 speaks specifically to this

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Notice our salvation is dependant upon two things here, both of which are working of God the Holy Spirit. However notice especially that this salvation is due to two aspects of regeneration, which are specifically addressed. Some hold that the 'washing of regeneration' refers only physical baptism but I whole heartedly disagree since the wording here refers back to the OT temple regarding 'the laver' . The laver of cleansing stood outside the door of the tabernacle, wherein the priest had to wash before entering the Holy Place, this symbolized not only being clean before God of unrighteousness and sin but also being set apart unto God, sanctified.
Thus we must also be washed in the laver 'of regeneration' but not of/by ourselves but by the Holy Spirit (Spirit baptism 'by fire' illistrating judging and cleansing) before we can come into the body of Christ which is the church. And we members of the body of Christ are also called "a royal priesthood" and like them we to must be cleansed prior to entering in of the Holy place/into Christ. I believe this fits more accurately the meaning of what Paul is conveying as the work of the Holy Spirit in the two main aspects of regeneration that constitutes a persons salvation.

The renewing of the Holy Spirit refers to change in disposition. Thus the Holy Spirit does not just cleanse them from sin to go back to their old ways, but also makes them a new creation. This new creation/new birth is not only freed from the penalty of sin but freed also from the power of sin over them that they might henceforth live unto God and no longer unto themselves (2 Cor 5:15).

The 'and' that connects the two aspects simply means 'in addition to' or "in conjunction with". In other words you can't have one without the other as each aspect, though distinct, works in unison with the other, for without one there is no other. As there is not justification without sanctification there is no sanctification without justification. And this why these two aspects of regeneration equate to and establishes the fact of one's salvation. They are two sides of the same coin and thus inseperable. For like the coin, to have one side without the other makes the coin of no value.

2. How are they passed away or removed?

Refer to previous point

2b. Are not our sins removed through the shed blood of Christ? yes we are justified by faith in Christ

Agreed.

2c. Is not this shed blood also known as the propitiation for our sins applied only through faith? yes Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and this comes through faith.

Agreed here as well.

3. And what has to have happened in order for that creation to be stated as 'new' (without taint or blemish)? You will have to do some explaining as to how you came up with this. I think you are drawing your conclusion from the Corinthians passage, right? I would say a new creation is one who has been born of God through the word of God.

The term 'new' here means specifically that - new. No defects, without fault, perfect or right.

If, as you say, old things are sin and unrighteousness (refer back to your answer in #1) what then is 'new' referring to since it is contrasting these two points?

You state 'new' refers to being born. Ok. But what does being born or born from above entail?

3b. Does not payment for the penalty of sin (propitiation) justify us before a Holy God and set us free from that condemnation? yes it does

We are agreed here as well.

3c. And does not our justification (being made free from judgment through a substitute) cause us to be clean, without taint or blemish on our account against God? yes

So far so good :laugh:

3d. If this is so, are we then not sanctified (separated) unto God being now freed from sin, cleansed from it's soiling, and placed in good standing/relation with God or better in unity with God? yes. I do understand your logic, so please keep explaining. This is why I am between 2 views. Let me try to explain your view to see if I’m reading you correctly.

You are arguing that regeneration and the sealing of the Holy Spirit both fall into the same category, regeneration, and sealing are after faith. To be set apart, justified, righteous, and born again would all mean a New Creation. You are arguing that we cannot be a New Creation without being indwelt, justified, righteous, and adopted as sons, correct?

Very close yes. Let me rephrase it a bit with some additions.

I am arguing that regeneration and the sealing of the Holy Spirit both fall into the same category, that regeneration and the sealing transpire after one exercises faith. This includes being set apart (sanctified), justified, righteous, and indwelt all constitute the new nature of being born again or a New Creation.

The mainstream thought of my reformed brethren state that the regeneration includes being justified, sanctified, being made in a right relationship to God (righteousness), and being 'In Christ' but still are not yet saved until they believe. There is some difference of opinion as to when the indwelling actually occurs .

What I am arguing that we cannot be saved unless we are justified, sanctified, made righteous, and adopted as sons (born again). Thus salvation is simply a general term for all that goes into being saved, while regeneration is more specific as to what has transpired that makes a person saved. Therefore terms like born, born again/from above, new man all reflect the change which regeneration has created in the person establishing the salvation they have received of God.

To requote from my earlier post:

I believe you can not be regenerate (which MUST include justification and sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Spirit) before faith.
WHY?

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation which is imputed to us 'by faith' and both terms are described as being born-again or the New Birth.

 

[zrs6v4]

Ok, but no where in scripture will you find a regenerate person who is not justified. Titus 3:5 speaks specifically to this

true, but this is because it is the purpose to lead directly to faith and justification

Notice our salvation is dependant upon two things here, both of which are working of God the Holy Spirit. However notice especially that this salvation is due to two aspects of regeneration, which are specifically addressed. Some hold that the 'washing of regeneration' refers only physical baptism but I whole heartedly disagree since the wording here refers back to the OT temple regarding 'the laver' . The laver of cleansing stood outside the door of the tabernacle, wherein the priest had to wash before entering the Holy Place, this symbolized not only being clean before God of unrighteousness and sin but also being set apart unto God, sanctified.
Thus we must also be washed in the laver 'of regeneration' but not of/by ourselves but by the Holy Spirit (Spirit baptism 'by fire' illistrating judging and cleansing) before we can come into the body of Christ which is the church. And we members of the body of Christ are also called "a royal priesthood" and like them we to must be cleansed prior to entering in of the Holy place/into Christ. I believe this fits more accurately the meaning of what Paul is conveying as the work of the Holy Spirit in the two main aspects of regeneration that constitutes a persons salvation.

The renewing of the Holy Spirit refers to change in disposition. Thus the Holy Spirit does not just cleanse them from sin to go back to their old ways, but also makes them a new creation. This new creation/new birth is not only freed from the penalty of sin but freed also from the power of sin over them that they might henceforth live unto God and no longer unto themselves (2 Cor 5:15).

The 'and' that connects the two aspects simply means 'in addition to' or "in conjunction with". In other words you can't have one without the other as each aspect, though distinct, works in unison with the other, for without one there is no other. As there is not justification without sanctification there is no sanctification without justification. And this why these two aspects of regeneration equate to and establishes the fact of one's salvation. They are two sides of the same coin and thus inseperable. For like the coin, to have one side without the other makes the coin of no value.

I think I agree with the first paragraph.
The second paragraph is a struggle, I am between the two points, although I dont think regeneration before or after faith would take away from God's effectual calling. I agree that it makes more sense for regeneration to be speaking of cleansing of sin and setting free, although again I am between these two arguments. 3rd paragraph makes logical sense, but again I can't sign up just yet.

You state 'new' refers to being born. Ok. But what does being born or born from above entail?

Being New would seem to entail being completely new although, again, it could simply mean a new nature. I follow what you are saying, I am just being very skeptical of either side. I agree with what you are saying that born again makes more sense to be cleansed (new or no sin), new nature, new life, new direction, etc...

I am arguing that regeneration and the sealing of the Holy Spirit both fall into the same category, that regeneration and the sealing transpire after one exercises faith. This includes being set apart (sanctified), justified, righteous, and indwelt all constitute the new nature of being born again or a New Creation.

So do you differentiate the rebirth and sealing of the Spirit? if so how? Im guessing you are saying that the instant faith happens the Spirit comes in and regenerates and indwells a believer. I am familiar with this and it is 1 of two of my options as I keep stating

The mainstream thought of my reformed brethren state that the regeneration includes being justified, sanctified, being made in a right relationship to God (righteousness), and being 'In Christ' but still are not yet saved until they believe. There is some difference of opinion as to when the indwelling actually occurs .

Yea I am overly familiar with this as it has been my view for awhile. The only thing I really am unsure of here is where to place regeneration. I understand that they say this is a work of the Holy Spirit in which He gives life and thus ability to respond in faith. This makes logical sense in this line of thought, but I do think that the Holy Spirit could call someone to faith sovereignly without regenerating first. Therefore I would be more agreement on your previous points if I held to that perspective.

What I am arguing that we cannot be saved unless we are justified, sanctified, made righteous, and adopted as sons (born again). Thus salvation is simply a general term for all that goes into being saved, while regeneration is more specific as to what has transpired that makes a person saved. Therefore terms like born, born again/from above, new man all reflect the change which regeneration has created in the person establishing the salvation they have received of God.

Makes sense although I wouldnt make regeneration equal with adoption. If I agreed with you that rebirth, sealing, justification, sanctification, adoption all come after faith then I would still argue that the state of being is quite new and different and has a new nature because of the Spirit being present within. Im not saying you disagree, but I can see how regeneration can be mistaken before faith or after faith because the same Spirit who gives eyes does a similar work before or after faith to bring about salvation. If you dont follow I can explain in more depth.

Maybe this will help: My order of salvation possibilities- ( The " - " means at the same time)

1- Election/predestination, effectual call, regeneration, faith, justification-sealing-sanctification, glorification

here is similar to the common reformed view ^

2- Election/Predestination, Effectual call, faith, rebirth-sealing-justification-sanctification, glorification

Here is my view that relates to your view of regeneration after faith with many aspects of salvation

3- Election/Predestination, Effectual call, faith-rebirth-sealing-justification-sanctification, glorification

This is my possible view that all gifts of salvation are poured out at the same time by the Spirit after His call