Judgment of God in Dan 7 and Romans 2

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Rev 20 has two judgments. Vs 1-4 judgment happens during the 1000 years and the Great White Throne judgment happens after the 1000 years.

Dan 7 puts the judgment before either of those two events - before the 2nd coming.
As already notice numerous times in the Dan 7 "details".

Rev 14:6-7 places the "judgment has come" message before the Rev 14:14-end second coming description and before the mark of the beast.

As it turns out - "details matter"

Quote:
Originally Posted by vooks
BobRyan,
Am sorry I don't understand your reply.
Are you stating that Daniel 7 judgement is describing something not captured in Revelation 20?

three judgments.

As you see in my post above -

When Christ comes - at the second coming all the saints both living and dead are taken to heaven - obviously their cases were already decided by that time - so that Rev 14:6-7 judgment had to obviously be before Rev 20.

So then - 2Cor 5:10, Romans 2, Dan 7 etc.

 

[Yeshua1]

three judgments.

As you see in my post above -

When Christ comes - at the second coming all the saints both living and dead are taken to heaven - obviously their cases were already decided by that time - so that Rev 14:6-7 judgment had to obviously be before Rev 20.

So then - 2Cor 5:10, Romans 2, Dan 7 etc.

Daniel 7 concerns the great tribulation period, last 7 years on earth before Second coming of Christ...

And the saints already are in heaven with jesus right now, and just awaiting their physical bodies to be raised up and glorified at the rapture event!

And there is the Great white Throne judgement right before new heavens and earth...

You really need to follow the bible and not your false prophetess!

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 7 shows a direct connection from the fall of Pagan Rome all the way to the 2nd coming - showing that the saints were persecuted the entire time.

It does not imagine for us - a dark ages free of persecution only to have a few years of persecution at the end of time.

 

[One Baptism]

This was to be originally given here:

A few obvious connections:

And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; [of] gold, [of] blue, and [of] purple, and [of] scarlet, and [of] fine twined linen, shalt thou make it. - Exodus 28:15

And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy [place], for a memorial before the LORD continually. - Exodus 28:29

And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually. - Exodus 28:30

And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy [place] within the vail before the mercy seat, which [is] upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. - Leviticus 16:2

And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that [is] upon the testimony, that he die not: - Leviticus 16:13

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. - Daniel 7:9

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. - Daniel 7:10

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. - Daniel 7:13

Thus shall Aaron come into the holy [place]: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering. - Leviticus 16:3

And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. - Leviticus 16:5

And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering. - Leviticus 16:9

Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. - Daniel 8:3

I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. - Daniel 8:4

And he came to the ram that had [two] horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. - Daniel 8:6

And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. - Daniel 8:7

The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia. - Daniel 8:20

And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat [had] a notable horn between his eyes. - Daniel 8:5

Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. - Daniel 8:8

And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. - Daniel 8:21

And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation. - Leviticus 16:33

And he shall make an atonement for the holy [place], because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. - Leviticus 16:16

And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. - Leviticus 16:19

For on that day shall [the priest] make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, [that] ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. - Leviticus 16:30

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. - Daniel 8:14

And he shall go out unto the altar that [is] before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar round about. - Leviticus 16:18

And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. - Daniel 8:21

Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. - Daniel 8:22

And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, - Revelation 9:13​

[1] According to the following passages, is the Judgment in them to occur before the 1000 years, during the 1,000 years, or at the end of the 1,000 years?

The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged. Psalms 37:33

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. Daniel 7:9

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:10

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Matthew 7:2

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:12

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Revelation 14:6

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Revelation 14:7​

 

[One Baptism]

This was to be originally given here: ...

[1] According to the following passages, is the Judgment in them to occur before the 1000 years, during the 1,000 years, or at the end of the 1,000 years?

The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged. Psalms 37:33

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. Daniel 7:9

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:10

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Matthew 7:2

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:12

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Revelation 14:6

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Revelation 14:7​

[2] According to the following passages, is the Judgment in them to occur before the 1000 years, during the 1,000 years, or at the end of the 1,000 years?

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 1 Corinthians 6:2

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:3

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4​

 

[One Baptism]

[2] According to the following passages, is the Judgment in them to occur before the 1000 years, during the 1,000 years, or at the end of the 1,000 years?

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 1 Corinthians 6:2

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:3

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4​

[3] According to the following passages, is the Judgment in them to occur before the 1000 years, during the 1,000 years, or at the end of the 1,000 years?

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:13​

 

[One Baptism]

[3] According to the following passages, is the Judgment in them to occur before the 1000 years, during the 1,000 years, or at the end of the 1,000 years?

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:13​

[1] According to the following passage{s} {Daniel 12:1; see also Luke 13:25 in conjunction}, how shall it be known to all who is to be delivered, and will it be found before the 1,000 years, during the 1,000 years or after the 1,000 years?

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. - Daniel 7:10

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luke 13:25​

 

[One Baptism]

[1] According to the following passage{s} {Daniel 12:1; see also Luke 13:25 in conjunction}, how shall it be known to all who is to be delivered, and will it be found before the 1,000 years, during the 1,000 years or after the 1,000 years?

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. - Daniel 7:10

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luke 13:25​

[2] According to the following passages {Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 21:7}, when are "the books" opened that they may be read by those in Heaven; before or after Jesus comes in His Second Advent?

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. Daniel 7:9

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:10

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:7​

 

[vooks]

[2] According to the following passages {Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 21:7}, when are "the books" opened that they may be read by those in Heaven; before or after Jesus comes in His Second Advent?

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. Daniel 7:9

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:10

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:7​

Hello One Baptist,
I believe your Revelation reference is Revelation 21:27 not 21:7.
If you meant 21:27 as you have quoted above, I don't see books being opened in 21:27 unlike Daniel so am not sure how one can answer your question.

I beseech you by the mercies of God to rephrase your question accordingly.

Shalom

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 7 shows a direct connection from the fall of Pagan Rome all the way to the 2nd coming - showing that the saints were persecuted the entire time.

It does not imagine for us - a dark ages free of persecution only to have a few years of persecution at the end of time.

As we saw here --
================================



Originally Posted by BobRyan
Speaking of "reading" -- the Dan 7 case is clear --

[FONT=&quot]The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming[/FONT]

Dan 7
“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.


And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.

Dan 7
23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

===============================

 

[One Baptism]

Hello One Baptist,
I believe your Revelation reference is Revelation 21:27 not 21:7. ...

Thank you for spotting that brother vooks! I do try to get all the references correct, and on occasion a mistake in transferring from one source [various Bible programs or notes, etc] to another and in editing is missed. I apologize for the incorrect reference, and am glad to have it spotted and corrected, so that others in future may have the correct place to look. I would ask all to keep me as sharp as possible. Herein is the rephrase as asked:

[2] According to the following passages {Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 21:27}, when are "the books" opened that they may be read by those in Heaven; before or after Jesus comes in His Second Advent?

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. Daniel 7:9

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:10

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27​

Therefore, the question is still open to all, now corrected in the single reference.

...If you meant 21:27 as you have quoted above, I don't see books being opened in 21:27 unlike Daniel so am not sure how one can answer your question. ...

I did, and thank you again for spotting it. I so dislike it when a reference is misgiven, and so apologize to you and all for it. By the grace of God, I shall try to keep that from happening in future.

As for the book in Revelation 21:27, how is it known that the names of the saved are written therein, and who they are, if it is not opened and examined? For the "angels" themselves desire to "look into" these things. They are the ones examining in Daniel.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. - Daniel 12:1​

 

[vooks]

Thank you for spotting that brother vooks! I do try to get all the references correct, and on occasion a mistake in transferring from one source [various Bible programs or notes, etc] to another and in editing is missed. I apologize for the incorrect reference, and am glad to have it spotted and corrected, so that others in future may have the correct place to look. I would ask all to keep me as sharp as possible. Herein is the rephrase as asked:

Therefore, the question is still open to all, now corrected in the single reference.

I did, and thank you again for spotting it. I so dislike it when a reference is misgiven, and so apologize to you and all for it. By the grace of God, I shall try to keep that from happening in future.

As for the book in Revelation 21:27, how is it known that the names of the saved are written therein, and who they are, if it is not opened and examined? For the "angels" themselves desire to "look into" these things. They are the ones examining in Daniel.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. - Daniel 12:1​

Too much glib
Revelation 20 judgements and books opened and Daniel 7 books. Are they referring to the same event?

 

[One Baptism]

[3] According to the following passages {Daniel 7:2-8} is the "Judgment" that "was set" {Daniel 7:9-10} to take place before these historical events, or begin sometime after their historical occurrence?

Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. Daniel 7:2

And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. Daniel 7:3

The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. Daniel 7:4

And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. Daniel 7:5

After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. Daniel 7:6

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. Daniel 7:7

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. Daniel 7:8​

 

[BobRyan]

Ok so THIS is the Bible --

As we saw here --
================================



Originally Posted by BobRyan
Speaking of "reading" -- the Dan 7 case is clear --

[FONT=&quot]The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming[/FONT]

Dan 7
“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.


And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.

Dan 7
23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

===============================

Romans 2 is not on this thread - even though the title says it would be - so then the long awaited "Romans 2" addition that shows 'future judgment" and the basis for that future judgment.

[FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]

But this next bit is - glib

Too much glib

That is glib.

Revelation 20 judgements and books opened and Daniel 7 books. Are they referring to the same event?

Not the same event - in Dan 7 it is before the 2nd coming.

In Rev 20 at the end of the chapter - it is after the Rev 19 second coming, and after the Rev 20 millennium.

Almost every Evangelical that accepts the pre-mill second coming knows this to be true.

Hard to find one that does not know it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[One Baptism]

[3] According to the following passages {Daniel 7:2-8} is the "Judgment" that "was set" {Daniel 7:9-10} to take place before these historical events, or begin sometime after their historical occurrence?

Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. Daniel 7:2

And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. Daniel 7:3

The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. Daniel 7:4

And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. Daniel 7:5

After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. Daniel 7:6

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. Daniel 7:7

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. Daniel 7:8​

[4] According to the following passages {Ecclesiastes 12:13-14} what is the standard of the Judgment of God?

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14​

 

[vooks]

[4] According to the following passages {Ecclesiastes 12:13-14} what is the standard of the Judgment of God?

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14​

What is the difference between;
1. A Catholic who derive their doctrines from scriptures AND Tradition and an Adventist who derive theirs from scriptures AND Ellen White?
2. A Catholic who subscribes to papal infallibility and inspiration and an Adventist who subscribe to Ellen White infallibility and inspiration
3. A Catholic who believes they are the ONLY true religion and an Adventist who thinks all non-Adventists are Babylon?

 

[One Baptism]

[4] According to the following passages {Ecclesiastes 12:13-14} what is the standard of the Judgment of God?

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14​

[5] According to the following texts {Deuteronomy 32:36; Romans 4:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 John 4:17; Psalms 7:8,11, 37:33, 51:4, 135:14; Matthew 7:2; 1 Corinthians 4:4; Hebrews 10:30; James 2:12; 1 Peter 1:17, 4:17; Revelation 14:7} are Christians to stand before the "Judgment seat of Christ" and be "judged"?

For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that [their] power is gone, and [there is] none shut up, or left. - Deuteronomy 32:36

The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity [that is] in me. - Psalm 7:8

God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day. - Psalm 7:11

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17

The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged. Psalms 37:33

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest. - Psalm 51:4

For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants. - Psalm 135:14

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Matthew 7:2

For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. - 1 Corinthians 4:4

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. - Hebrews 10:30

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:12

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: - 1 Peter 1:17

For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? - 1 Peter 4:17

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. - Revelation 14:7​

 

[BobRyan]

What is the difference between;
1. A Catholic who derive their doctrines from scriptures AND Tradition and an Adventist who derive theirs from scriptures AND Ellen White?
2. A Catholic who subscribes to papal infallibility and inspiration and an Adventist who subscribe to Ellen White infallibility and inspiration
3. A Catholic who believes they are the ONLY true religion and an Adventist who thinks all non-Adventists are Babylon?

The catholic who decides to "make stuff up" as vooks is doing -- shares the same model and method to get to the end point.

SDAs declare the sola scriptura model - Vooks fears Daniel 7 and Romans 2 on the subject of the Judgment - even that is the title of this thread - so the fluff in the post above is his 'result".

The proofs given here for the Judgment in Dan 7 and Romans 2 were NOT quotes of Ellen White - and if vooks thinks Ellen White is the author of Daniel 7 or Romans 2 - well then that would be one more made-up-story by Vooks.

Here is the actual OP

Since we seem to have a flurry of posts on the PTR and OSAS recently -- I thought I would toss this new topic out for a change.

In 2Cor 5, Dan 7 and Romans 2 we see reference to the pre-advent, future, judgment of God.

in Dan 7 we are told that the saints do not receive the kingdom until this event completes.

in Romans 2:13-16 we are told that all (both Jew and Gentile) are to be judged in that future judgment.

In 2Cor 5 we are told that both good deeds and sins -- evil deeds will be evaluated in that judgment.

In Rev 14 we see the message go out to all those who dwell on the earth "Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment HAS come".

Question for the group?

When do you preach on this important topic? When do you hear preaching on it?

Is it presented in scripture as something to be ignored?

What are your thoughts?

It has nothing at all to do with the "playground fluff" Vooks posted above.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[vooks]

BobRyan,
You are contradicting Ellen White :tonofbricks:
The question

Originally Posted by vooks View Post
Revelation 20 judgements and books opened and Daniel 7 books. Are they referring to the same event?

You answered

Not the same event - in Dan 7 it is before the 2nd coming.

In Rev 20 at the end of the chapter - it is after the Rev 19 second coming, and after the Rev 20 millennium.

Almost every Evangelical that accepts the pre-mill second coming knows this to be true.

Hard to find one that does not know it.

in Christ,

Bob

But Ellen White thinks differently

The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment. Says the prophet Daniel: "The judgment was set, and the books were opened." The revelator, describing the same scene, adds: "Another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12.

Great Controversy Page 481

 

[BobRyan]

I am leading out in a Bible study class this Wednesday (tomorrow) and also on Sabbath June 27 and the topic is the Judgment in Dan 7 and Romans 2 -- as the Thief in the Night experience talked about in the New Testament.

So I invite the Bible students here to add any Bible tips they may have on the "details".- in case I need to add something here.

Here are two of the texts I am looking at.

[FONT=&quot]In the Bible we do find Daniel 7 and Romans 2.

1. Books are opened.
2. Court sits and many many beings are there - not just God.
3. The Father is presiding - And Christ comes to the Court room - Judgment once it is setup.
4. Once that Judgment is ended - and judgment passes in favor of the saints -- the persecution of the saints ends
5. And we have the second coming.


The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming

Dan 7
“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.


And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.

Dan 7

22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]----------------------------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And of course Romans 2 describes the process that they use in that "Gospel judgment" future to the days of Paul.

2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".


Romans 2
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.[/COLOR]

And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]

in Christ,

Bob