How do you examine yourself?

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Tell me Steaver, is deception a real possibility or not? Can one think they have heard the witness of the Spirit, and in the end find out that they have been deceived or simply deceived themselves? I certainly believe Scripture is replete with warnings and examples of that very thing.

HP, is it possible that you have been deceived? Is it possible that you reject eternal salvation because you are deceived?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Now if we are finished with this rabbit trail, the questions still remain unanswered. Awaiting your repsonses....

HP: Restructuring your comments is well and good, but there is, and will remain, unfinished business. How nice that you are allowed that opportunity to simply do so, but others have not faired so well. One good and decent man, a man of God that has been faithful to His Word over the years, has been cut off and that for life, over far less, as I call in a past conversation with you. Where was your spirit of kindness, kindness you desire to bestow on yourself, shown to others? Forget love. It is hypocrisy that is blind.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: HP, is it possible that you have been deceived? Is it possible that you reject eternal salvation because you are deceived?

HP: Amy, it lies within the realm of possibilities that any and all of us can be deceived. That certainly does not mean it is the case, nor that it must be the case, or that it will be the case. But yes, it does lie within the realm of 'possibilities' when we are hemmed in to holding our eternal hope by faith in this present world.
I have to run, but when I get back I will try and set forth the scriptural plan that we can employ to make our calling and election certain that deception will not be our ruin. I hope that when I return that someone else will have posted the needed Scriptures that God has set forth to guide us on a path of steady assurance. :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Amy, it lies within the realm of possibilities that any and all of us can be deceived. That certainly does not mean it is the case, nor that it must be the case, or that it will be the case. But yes, it does lie within the realm of 'possibilities' when we are hemmed in to holding our eternal hope by faith in this present world.
I have to run, but when I get back I will try and set forth the scriptural plan that we can employ to make our calling and election certain that deception will not be our ruin. I hope that when I return that someone else will have posted the needed Scriptures that God has set forth to guide us on a path of steady assurance. :thumbs:

I'm glad to know that you think you could be wrong on the eternal security issue, and may have been deceived into believing that you are not secure in the arms of Christ.
That's a start.

 

[steaver]

One good and decent man, a man of God that has been faithful to His Word over the years, has been cut off and that for life, over far less, as I call in a past conversation with you.

Is this the same man who reregistered under a false identity and then got banned a second time? The man who said he never transgressed the law but then flat out lied to get back on this board? Faithful to His Word you call him? Ok.

Where was your spirit of kindness, kindness you desire to bestow on yourself, shown to others? Forget love. It is hypocrisy that is blind.

Can you give me a fair example of your accusation towards me?

And if you still feel I have broken rules please feel free to report me and I will take my admonishment.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

HP: Amy, it lies within the realm of possibilities that any and all of us can be deceived. That certainly does not mean it is the case, nor that it must be the case, or that it will be the case. But yes, it does lie within the realm of 'possibilities' when we are hemmed in to holding our eternal hope by faith in this present world.

It is very sad that some Christians believe that they could be deceived that they are a Christian. If this would be true, then none of us have any hope and none of us can know for sure we have followed truth.

You can write all the commentary you wish HP, and you can post dozens of scriptures, and in the end what have you proven? Nothing, because you believe you could have been deceived that Jesus is Lord and don't even know if all you have posted is nothing more than a deception.

If you believe a Christian can be deceived that they are a Christian, then nobody can know if Jesus Christ is true. Nobody, and "pretty good idea" of it is worthless!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: If you believe a Christian can be deceived that they are a Christian, then nobody can know if Jesus Christ is true. Nobody, and "pretty good idea" of it is worthless!

HP: Not so Steaver. I certainly would not describe such a blessed hope as worthless. Scripture tells us otherwise. It is not I but Scripture that tells us that many will find themselves deceived in the end, thinking themselves something that they are not. Many start right but fall to the wayside.

There is going to be a host that have been faithful, that have faithfully judged themselves in the end that they may not have to be judged and will find in the end to have Christ as their Advocate. Oh yes, there will be many deceived in the end, but that should not discourage me. I am asked to simply come and follow Christ. Knowing that deception is possible is not a discouragement to me. It is a motivation to my heart to give heed to the warnings, to pay close attention to the admonitions of making shipwreck of the faith, and to act in obedience to God’s commands.

Oh yes we can know Jesus is true! He is alive and dwells within His children. Just as I can know that my wife will love me for a lifetime, all though the possibility exists that she could leave me if she so desired, I can know that Christ will see me through, IF I remain faithful to the end. God is indeed faithful to do His part, if we will remain faithful and fulfill the conditions He has set forth to be redeemed. His conditions are simple: Repent, have faith, and remain faithful to the end.

There is going to be a multitude that have took seriously the admonitions to test the spirits, and to examine themselves to see if they be of the faith. That Scripture affirms and is an absolute truth. What is not settled as an absolute truth is whether or not we, in the end, are of that number. If we fail to persevere, it will not be due to the lack in any of God’s promises, but rather a lack on our willingness to follow Him in obedience. God promises if we repent from our sins, and turn from our wicked ways, and seek His face, and live obedient to His commands, that indeed we can entertain a certain hope of eternal life. No need to be deceived or discouraged, and every need to be obedient and to look to Christ for the strength to perform that which He commands, love towards God and our fellowman with our whole heart. “Strive to enter in” is the command! Lu 13:24 “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.”

 

[windcatcher]

Recently I heard a neat little description about God the Father:

3 things God cannot do: he can't lie, he can't learn, he can't force one to love him.

4 things God doesn't know: a sin he doesn't hate, a sinner he doesn't love, a path to his throne other than through Jesus Christ his son, a better time than now to trust the Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

God can't lie: What does his word say about salvation? Trust every thing God says.
God can't learn: He already knows all there is to know. We do not surprise him by our behavior.... or questions .....or emotions ......or thoughts: We can hide nothing from him and he knows all about it even before we do.
God doesn't force one to love him. He is not willing that any should perish..... but the fact is that some do perish; some choose not to love him; he doesn't take what isn't freely offered or committed to his care.

Examining yourself?
Steaver says:

When I examined myself to see if Jesus Christ was in me I went through a list of possible questions and answers.

1) Do I believe in God? Yes, but so do the devils and they are lost.
2) Can I show I love God? Yes, but so can the lost.
3) Can I show I love others? Yes, but so can the lost.
4) Can I obey God's commandments? Yes, not perfectly, but so can the lost, and some of them probably more perfectly than I. No one is perfect though.
5) Am I sinless? No, but no one can be sinless but God.
6) Do I have good works? Yes, but so do the lost.
7) Do I have bad works? Yes, but so do the lost. We all have good and bad.
8) Do I believe in Jesus Christ? Yes, but the question is "how do I know He is in me?" Many people say they believe in Jesus Christ, are all saved? I don't think so.

Amy.G says:

Here is what I look at personally.
How have I changed since I received Christ?


I can't get enough of God's word.
I feel horrible when I sin. (And I do sin.)
I seek God daily, even moment by moment.
I love to go to church.
I want to please God.
I hate sin.
When I fall (sin) I immediately seek God's forgiveness.
I pray to God.
I trust God.
I put my life in God's hand.
I am thankful for all that God gives me.
I realize that all good things come from God and not me.
I depend on His protection from the devil.
I trust Him to keep me saved.
I realize that I am a sinner not worthy of God's grace and mercy.
I love others.

Both, I think, are on the right track concerning what may be part of self examination.

What brought me to God in the first place: Did I come to him for what I thought I could gain or take away? Did I bring anything to him to 'bargain' with thinking (wrongly) that I could be 'worthy'? Did I recognize his holiness and the justice of his judgement already against me and my powerlessness to do anything about it? ......And in that recognition, did something of the Holy Spirit's call.... like a need well up within me to want to turn loose of everything and trust him when his Son said 'it is finished' and hung on that cross..... did I come to a place where I knew that was for me? What was my confession and was it born of conviction or was it just a feeling? Did I believe his word and the sacrifice he gave and trust his redemption? When I feel guilty or know that I have sinned, what do I do about it? Do I return and repent and feel sorry...... or do I cover up? Do I justify myself when I am wrong or do I go to him for pardon and renewal? Do I forgive others, even when they don't ask, or do I carry offenses and/or bitterness of 'wrongs' against me? Where is pride in all of this? It has the letter "i" in the middle and often it is in the middle of most if not all the problems I get into: It is a major offense to God! So do I find myself frequently convicted and repentant and do I try to change and allow his holy spirit to lead me and give me strength and guidance in this and other personal battles? Is my humility real or feigned? Do I love him? Is my desire to please him or myself? Do I believe and love the Word of God? I wash my cup on the outside because I want to look presentable and attractive to others, perhaps...... but what about the care of the insides which are hidden to others but of greater grief or pleasure to God? Who am I living to please.... God, man, or myself? If I've committed anything to God's care.... was it only part of me or was it my all? Even though I see these ideals and fall short.... is there a deep desire to know him and to please him.... or is it something I'm concerned with only when others are around? "The works" which I do....is it an act of faith and obediance and desire to please God.... or do I do lip service and eye service for the applause of men? Am I keeping score .......like some people do in relationships with each other... comparing themselves amongst themselves.... or do I do what I do as God leads me to and the forget about it.... and leave the whole business of reward or gain up to him? Do I feel shame when I willfully sin..... or when I realize too late that I acted alone on a decision which I should have entrusted to him? Do I let God and his word and the messages through others speak instruction, conviction, and correction to me, or am I easily offended, defensive, evasive, ready to fight and slow to repent? Am I honest with God, myself, and others? Am I mindful of his presence throughout the days.... or only on Sundays or when emotionally stirred by special music or an emotive and passionate sermon or event? When I have those feelings, so common to human experience, of blues or deeper.....depression and 'feelings' and thoughts of hopelessness..... are these all that I have, or is there deeper still within me a knowledge that though 'feelings' are a discomfort upon my personality and physical being and mood...... God has given me his word, and his promises, and he is faithful and true, and as he has hold of me.... I must take hold and embrace him, if not by feeling, then by faith for his words sake......HE WILL NEVER LEAVE ME NOR FORSAKE ME! So then these 'hopeless', 'worthless', 'helpless' pity partys are from my undisciplined emotional self...... just like feelings of anger, or elation, or desire.... but the truth is not in feelings and emotions but in faith well founded in his word and what he has done for me, and in my innermost parts I know his peace..... even if all 'anxious' on the outside. When I stray...... does he seek me? Does he discipline me? Is he a loving and correcting Father...... showing forth that I am his child...... or am I left alone to do what I want, think what I choose, run where I wil? Does it ever bother me that often times I fail to glorify the Father, or honor and obey the Holy Spirit, or behave with the courtesy, humility, graciousness, or charity showing forth the Son who bought my redemption to a world who thrists for him? Do I have a love and desire for the lost that they might be saved..... or am I afraid and avoid 'sinners'? What about 'God's children'? Is there a love for the brothers and sisters in the body of Christ? "Be kindly affectioned one towards another'..... do I thank God for the family into which his new birth has brought me? When I do fear...... when I do doubt..... am I honest with myself and God... and confess it and ask his help for faith 'Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief!' and go to his Word for encouragement and response? What about prayer, its frequency or readiness? Do I respond to God and the guidance of his Holy Spirit or am I rebellious and self-willed?

When questions come up like this, do I prayerfully open my heart and ask Him who has the answers and study His Word..... until he either gives me assurance or the faith to believe unto salvation........ which ever I need? The natural man doesn't seek after God: On the other hand, some may be deceived by having knowledge without a heart change of faith. Faith....forsaking all I trust Him!


These are a few of the questions which cross my mind in 'self-examination'........ However the most important question is not what I ask myself.....or answer for myself..... But the one which I must answer if I were to stand at the judgement and the accuser brought up all grievances and sins, omissions and commissions..... and God were to ask me is this true: I might answer but your Word says without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins but Jesus paid it all when he said it is finished and I put my trust in his redemptive work and he promised me his robe of righteousness to wear, and to write my name in the Lamb's book of Life. But standing before the accuser and having to answer for myself is not scriptural..... when I have Jesus as my advocate before the Father.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Here is some straight scriptural admonishment that will solidify our faith. Notice that we are not to simply love God with words such as ‘I have faith,’ but by deed and in truth. Now I know I have already lost some who believe the truth is impossible for us to comply with due to the false and unscriptural notion that all are liars, but just the same, it is Scripture. Never does faith stand alone as the sole condition of our salvation, but it is in deed and in truth, in keeping the commandments and abiding in Christ. Just because there are passages that only mention faith, or hope, or the preacher, or the hearing, etc, does not mean that because only one condition is mentioned in a particular passage, only one condition exists. Our faith must be rooted in love, love being an act of the will. Our faith must be coupled with a heart of repentance resulting in a clear conscience before God and man, without which we are but deceived. God has only promised to dwell in those ‘keeping His commandments.’ It is through this testimony of our conscience, granted to us by the Holy Spirit, that solid assurance, solid faith of our final standing before God, can be acquired. Any attempt to gain entrance into the kingdom, or any faith that does not embrace obedience and love towards God and man, apart from following the admonition granted to us here in this passage in 1Jn, is like trying to gain entrance into the fold via some other means than the door, Christ Himself in agreement with the conditions He has mandated.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Windcatcher: We do not surprise him by our behavior....

HP: No one understands totally the Omnipotent God, and often there can be seeming contradictions (from our limited perspective) due to that fact. With that in mind, Scripture does seem to indicate that God is shocked or surprised by the wicked acts of men, even denying (in some limited sense) that He is Omniscient when it comes to wicked behavior of men. Here is the verse I have in mind. Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

 

[steaver]

HP;

Oh yes we can know Jesus is true! He is alive and dwells within His children.

I said this and you said "how do I know I am not being deceived and only think Jesus is alive and dwells in me"?

Which way would you like it HP? Either you can "know" or you can't "know". With "knowing" leaves out deception.

You offer an empty hope. Unless one can know without decption that Jesus Christ is in them then you offer no hope at all. Nothing more than another religion.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Which way would you like it HP? Either you can "know" or you can't "know". With "knowing" leaves out deception.

HP: Simply not true. We indeed can know two distinctly different ways, one by absolute knowledge and the other by faith. Label me as you so desire, but faith and absolute knowledge are not synonymous, neither can they be. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Now we have faith, subsequent to seeing our names written down in the Lamb’s Book of Life we will have absolute knowledge. You would do well to consider this truth.

 

[steaver]

HP: We indeed can know two distinctly different ways, one by absolute knowledge and the other by faith.

YES!!!! You got it!!!!

The scriptures declares BOTH!!

Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Eph 1:13In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Praise God a break through! Now run with it HP, don't turn back!

:jesus:

 

[Gup20]

HP: That is as clear of a violation of the rules of this forum as can possibly be imagined. You directly questioned my salvation. Moderator please.

1Cr 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. (NKJV)

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (KJV)

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves [as to] whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified. (NKJV)

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-unless, of course, you fail the test? (NIV)

Strange that you would cry foul when someone asks a rhetorical question about your faith, when that is exactly what you are accusing Paul of doing to the Corinthians. Only Paul goes on to answer his own rhetorical question:

2Cr 13:6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test. (NIV)

This of course points directly back to verse 3:

2Cr 13:3 since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.

This demonstrates the contextual meaning of verse 5 is in relation to verses 3 and 6... meaning verse 5 isn't the subject... but verse 3 is the subject. Just like steaver asks a rhetorical question in relation to his point, so too does Paul. This is why he asks them to "examine themselves" - it is rhetorical, meaning if they are Christians, they can go to God (who is in them, BTW) to ask him if what Paul is saying is true. Paul doesn't have to bear witness of himself, as God is more than capable of answering that question for himself - and if they are Christians, they are more than capable of asking Him and receiving the answer.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[windcatcher]

HP: Amy, it lies within the realm of possibilities that any and all of us can be deceived. That certainly does not mean it is the case, nor that it must be the case, or that it will be the case. But yes, it does lie within the realm of 'possibilities' when we are hemmed in to holding our eternal hope by faith in this present world.

Two things, and this is my opinion: If someone challenges me being a Christian....... I can either answer in the affirmative because I know in whom I have believed, or inquire further as to specifically what causes this other person this question. If it is just to argue about faith.... then the vainity is quickly discovered and the discussion ends there: But if there exits some careless trait in me or my manner which disposes others to doubt..... then can I examine myself to see if there's truth to the charge.....and seek God's help in correcting or changing this flaw.... and forgiveness of others if and whom I might have offended?

On the other hand...... Is this a question I have of myself? If I question whether or not I am a Christian...... the Bible is my mirror, and as I read it, I prayerfully ask God to help me see what it is that I'm missing which I need ......either for reassurance..... or for committment to him so I have that assurance. If God is not in me......then my question may be because of Him drawing me to him..... to commit to Him my life. If God is in me...... then He will reveal this and desires that I examine my life to see where I've refused to yield to his Lordship, repent, and allow him to turn me around until all that I offered him one day is totally sold out and committed to him.

It is in the discrepancies between the non conforming or committment of my character to his which are a reasonable cause of my doubt, and the willingness and desire to let him mold me into the person he would have me to become....a function of the Holy Spirit dwelling within, which also gives me reassurance.

"Are you a Christian?" The question does not offend me. But the context of the question may determine my perception of it as a challenge, an identifier, or a person interested in knowing the Lord. If I am too hasty in my own assumptions and response.... I may be missing an opportunity to share Christ to one who has yet to know him.

 

[steaver]

windcatcher;

Two things, and this is my opinion: If someone challenges me being a Christian....... I can either answer in the affirmative because I know in whom I have believed, or inquire further as to specifically what causes this other person this question. If it is just to argue about faith.... then the vainity is quickly discovered and the discussion ends there: But if there exits some careless trait in me or my manner which disposes others to doubt..... then can I examine myself to see if there's truth to the charge.....and seek God's help in correcting or changing this flaw.... and forgiveness of others if and whom I might have offended?

On the other hand...... Is this a question I have of myself? If I question whether or not I am a Christian...... the Bible is my mirror, and as I read it, I prayerfully ask God to help me see what it is that I'm missing which I need ......either for reassurance..... or for committment to him so I have that assurance. If God is not in me......then my question may be because of Him drawing me to him..... to commit to Him my life. If God is in me...... then He will reveal this and desires that I examine my life to see where I've refused to yield to his Lordship, repent, and allow him to turn me around until all that I offered him one day is totally sold out and committed to him.

It is in the discrepancies between the non conforming or committment of my character to his which are a reasonable cause of my doubt, and the willingness and desire to let him mold me into the person he would have me to become....a function of the Holy Spirit dwelling within, which also gives me reassurance.

"Are you a Christian?" The question does not offend me. But the context of the question may determine my perception of it as a challenge, an identifier, or a person interested in knowing the Lord. If I am too hasty in my own assumptions and response.... I may be missing an opportunity to share Christ to one who has yet to know him.

Good word!

I actually like it when someone questions my faith. It gives me opportunity to share the scriptures with them. Mostly you will find that those who question your faith are ignorant of the scriptures, they mostly have heard bits and pieces of scripture with no context and repeat them misapplying them.

Here is a typical one that both the lost and the undiscipled saved like to say...."And he calls himself a Christian" or "your suppose to be a Christian". Everytime I get one of these I will say to them with love "show me from the scripture what sin you believe I have committed and I will most certainly appologize and repent"? Many times they will quote a scripture they heard once, maybe on TV, and then I get to open my bible and teach them what that verse means in context. Don't get me wrong though, I am not sinless, sometimes they are spot on and then I get a chance to show them humbleness and repentance, I will say to them, even if they are lost, "you are right, I shouldn't have done that or said that". I let them know that just because I have been eternally saved it does not make me perfect, God is still working on me until I leave this body of death.

:thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

Gup20;

This demonstrates the contextual meaning of verse 5 is in relation to verses 3 and 6... meaning verse 5 isn't the subject... but verse 3 is the subject. Just like steaver asks a rhetorical question in relation to his point, so too does Paul. This is why he asks them to "examine themselves" - it is rhetorical, meaning if they are Christians, they can go to God (who is in them, BTW) to ask him if what Paul is saying is true. Paul doesn't have to bear witness of himself, as God is more than capable of answering that question for himself - and if they are Christians, they are more than capable of asking Him and receiving the answer.

I agree with this Gup. And even though it is a rhetorical question, it does teach us that the way we know we are in the faith is "knowing how that Jesus Christ is in us"

And the only way to know this is as you posted....

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Good works cannot prove our ownselves, for the lost can do good works.
Obedience to the law cannot prove our ownselves, for the lost can practice obedience to the law, Paul did and what did he have to say about his obedient life before Christ? That's right, DUNG!

:jesus: Praise Him!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Paul did and what did he have to say about his obedient life before Christ? That's right, DUNG!

HP: And where might we find that reference? What obedient life before Christ??

 

[Amy.G]

HP: And where might we find that reference? What obedient life before Christ??

Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,


This came on the heels of Paul saying he was:

Circumcised the eighth day
of the stock of Israel
of the tribe of Benjamin
a Hebrew of the Hebrews
as touching the law, a Pharisee


All of Paul's accomplishments and his obedience to the Law, he counted as garbage!

G4657
σκύβαλον
skubalon
skoo'-bal-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of G1519 and G2965 and G906; what is thrown to the dogs, that is, refuse (ordure): - dung.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: All of Paul's accomplishments and his obedience to the Law

HP: Does outward obedience to the law constitute 'obedience' from God’s perspective?