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Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
- Start date
Certainly we must differentiate between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the operatives of God by the Holy Spirit through all time, and not just in the NT period. The Holy Spirit was given to the church people in the physical absence of Jesus, the Christ. The Holy Spirit was always present as the operative and saving hand of God the Father.
Obviously the OT saints did not understand the work of the Holy Spirit. They didn't fully understand the concept of a Messiah.
The book of Job best describes how the Holy Spirit operated in and upon the lives of the redeemed saints of old. We never talked about the Holy Spirit indwelling all of Israel. It was only a nation, through which God carried His word, His truth.
Abraham was called upon to sacrifice his son, but this was only a demonstration of things to come...the Messiah, Jesus, being sacrificed on the cross for the sin of all the world. It was the indwelling Spirit that saved Abraham eternally, as is revealed in the NT.
It was the indwelling Spirit that kept Job faithful and convinced to the end, and he later declared that he knew he would stand on the earth and see God and live eternally in God's special place.
The preached word is our personal physician (Jesus Christ); the divine work in us, the divine surgeon (the Holy Spirit) that performs the work of redemptive change, or indwells us. It is the Holy Spirit who guides us along the route of sanctification.
Cheers,
Jim
Obviously the OT saints did not understand the work of the Holy Spirit. They didn't fully understand the concept of a Messiah.
The book of Job best describes how the Holy Spirit operated in and upon the lives of the redeemed saints of old. We never talked about the Holy Spirit indwelling all of Israel. It was only a nation, through which God carried His word, His truth.
Abraham was called upon to sacrifice his son, but this was only a demonstration of things to come...the Messiah, Jesus, being sacrificed on the cross for the sin of all the world. It was the indwelling Spirit that saved Abraham eternally, as is revealed in the NT.
It was the indwelling Spirit that kept Job faithful and convinced to the end, and he later declared that he knew he would stand on the earth and see God and live eternally in God's special place.
The preached word is our personal physician (Jesus Christ); the divine work in us, the divine surgeon (the Holy Spirit) that performs the work of redemptive change, or indwells us. It is the Holy Spirit who guides us along the route of sanctification.
Cheers,
Jim
Sorry brother don't see how you coin you stance because this passage"Ephesian text" says its all clear as a bell?
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Jews believe God is "ONE", a "Spirit" who stays in heaven, on the throne, never leaving it or Heaven.
Yet "most" of their ancestors claim to have seen God "face to face" in "physical form".
In the OT, Jesus appeared as the "Angels of the Lord/God", and was recognized as God, but never revealed his name.
Ex 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:
Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Jg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?
Jews refer to God as "HASHEM", = "the name", they still don't know God's name is "Jesus".
but you see the problem here in their belief God is ONE, a Spirit, and nothing more.
Christains have the same problem only it's the "reverse", they view Jesus as God, and nothing more.
Sure they mention Father/Son, but get them to explain it.
Both Jews/Christians have a problem explaining scripture according to this God who is both a "Spirit" and a "Physical form".
Jim 1999,thanks for your observation that the spirit did indwell Old Testament Saints. I guess this is what I was trying to get back to.:thumbs:
but it was the exception.......you guys said before that he never indwelled them. Now there were exceptions? Come on now these were saved like you and I are......faith towards God.......received the Holy Spirit.
I believe you overlooked my #17 post.
Well I said guys"ment and Gals" One says exception,the other said no way,but you agreed. I don't see any difference here......indwelled"born from above"sealed.
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I think it was the norm,because man is flesh and will not seek after God.
Some great questions!
Were OT saints “born again”?
OT saints were bound to the Law and prisoners of sin (Romans 7:9,10).
Yet OT saints could be justified (made right) with God (Romans 4).
They were saved by faith, not by the works of the law.
Their faith looked forward to the redemption (purchase) by the Messiah.
But were they “born again”?
Christ himself was the first, He lead the way.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Colossians 1:17-18 NASB95
Rob
Were OT saints “born again”?
OT saints were bound to the Law and prisoners of sin (Romans 7:9,10).
Yet OT saints could be justified (made right) with God (Romans 4).
They were saved by faith, not by the works of the law.
Their faith looked forward to the redemption (purchase) by the Messiah.
But were they “born again”?
Christ himself was the first, He lead the way.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Colossians 1:17-18 NASB95
Rob
I want to type a quote from John F. Walvoord's book, The Holy Spirit. For those who don't know, Walvoord was president and Systematic Theology of Dallas Theological Seminary some years back:
"The personal presence of te Holy Spirit as indwelling the saint is an evident mark of divine grace and the seat of many of His ministries. While both the Father and the Son are said to indwell believers, the preponderance of scripture revealing the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the believer demonstrates that while the Godhead is present, the ministry thereof is commited in large measure, though not exclusively, to the Holy Spirit. He is their agent, and through His ministry Their purposes are realized. These truths are in harmony with the nature of the Third Person, and His relation to the other persons of the Trinity..." (page 33, under title, Ministry to the saints.)
Even Walvoord, a devout dispensationalist, who divided divine services to Old Testament and the period of grace, does not limit the work of the Holy Spirit in either dispensation.
Cheers,
Jim
"The personal presence of te Holy Spirit as indwelling the saint is an evident mark of divine grace and the seat of many of His ministries. While both the Father and the Son are said to indwell believers, the preponderance of scripture revealing the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the believer demonstrates that while the Godhead is present, the ministry thereof is commited in large measure, though not exclusively, to the Holy Spirit. He is their agent, and through His ministry Their purposes are realized. These truths are in harmony with the nature of the Third Person, and His relation to the other persons of the Trinity..." (page 33, under title, Ministry to the saints.)
Even Walvoord, a devout dispensationalist, who divided divine services to Old Testament and the period of grace, does not limit the work of the Holy Spirit in either dispensation.
Cheers,
Jim
ray Marshall
New Member
So as JESUS paid the sin debt in full, they were saved on credit by jesus.
Jim, your knowledge of Walvoord is - uh - questionable on this point since in the same book page 71 he is rather clear "The Old Testament in contrast to the present age. In the dispensation of grace the Holy Spirit undertakes to indwell every Christian from the moment of regeneration. It is one of the testimonies to God's grace that the Holy Spirit thus makes the bodies of saved men His holy temple. Throughout the entire Old Testament period up to the day of Pentecost no such universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit is observed. While it was not in the program of God for this feature of the ministry of the Holy Spirit to befome universal among believers prior to the age of grace, nevertheless God in His sovereign will and acfcording to His onw purposes selected individuals in the Old Testament to whom was given the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit."
I think one of the hallmarks of the original dispies was that the Holy Spirit did not indwell all believers in the Old Testament as He does now. This also relates in my mind to why the Spirit was to be sent as has been indicated in the thread, as well as why the OT saints were kept in Abraham's bosom until the sacrifice of the Lord.
:wavey: back to my retirment from the board :thumbs:
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I quoted Walvoord directly,,,without comment.
Obviously, I would ignore any teaching requiring dispensationalism, but Walvoord, here is showing the work of the Holy Spirit fro all time and not just the various dispensations.
In an earlier post, I did dismiss the idea that Israel were all "believers" and that only those who were truly experienced in the Lord would be idwelt by the Holy Spirit, lending credence to His roll as the third person of the trinity.
Cheers,
Jim
Obviously, I would ignore any teaching requiring dispensationalism, but Walvoord, here is showing the work of the Holy Spirit fro all time and not just the various dispensations.
In an earlier post, I did dismiss the idea that Israel were all "believers" and that only those who were truly experienced in the Lord would be idwelt by the Holy Spirit, lending credence to His roll as the third person of the trinity.
Cheers,
Jim
It is my stance the Old Testament Saints were indeed dwelt by Gods spirit. I also believe it shows His spirit upon His servants in a special way at times for His service"two separate things".
Well maybe one more post :smilewinkgrin:
The context of your quote is under the heading of "Indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit." The context prior to your quote is "While the Holy Spirit is omnipresent in every dispensation, it is part of His ministry to indwell the saints living in the church age and in the millennium."
Now, back to retirment :sleeping_2:
Obviously, I am not a dispensationalist, and I would dispense with anything along those lines. I always liked Walvoord's book, but for the most part it reeks of dispensationalism and it just sits on my shelf until this question arose and I remembered this quote.
He does say the Holy Spirit remains the working hand of the Godhead throughout all time and "dispensations" and that was my point, not his dispensational applications through the variety of dispensations and the so-called church age and millennium.
Cheers,
Jim
He does say the Holy Spirit remains the working hand of the Godhead throughout all time and "dispensations" and that was my point, not his dispensational applications through the variety of dispensations and the so-called church age and millennium.
Cheers,
Jim
Correct (Rom 3:21-26).