Why don't the MV's keep their principle, the Oldest the Best?

[gb93433]

How could He say to His " Believers" ?

44Ye are of your father the devil,

He said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

What about Paul

Can any great Believers who are following those great Apostles and Lord Jesus Christ continue to post and argue in defense of the Bible Truth here?

Following the apostles? Peter denied Jesus how many times? At one time Paul did not get along with Mark?

Jn 16:13, 14, "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you."


Jesus Christ is both the way and the truth in Jn 14:6 and the Holy Spirit is the guide who shows the way to the truth in Jn 16:14.

 

[EdSutton]

As I told in the other thread, JW cannot stand on KJV. (sic)

You might want to argue this one with the effective founder and first President of the Jehovah Witness organization, Charles Tate Russell, who, in fact, used (or probably more accurately abused) the KJV as the Bible.

Granted, later the Jehovah Witness group began to use the ASV [primarily because of its fairly widespread availability in the US (as compared to the availability of the YLT or DBY, which although likely would have served their purpose about as well, but which version is and was somewhat more difficult to come by in the US), and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society managed to acquire rights to print the ASV, and have, in fact, printed and distributed nearly 900K copies over the years. In fact, they will happily provide you with an ASV (or ED or NWT) today (at no cost to you, no less, as they do still print all these versions), and the 5500+ uses of the term "Jehovah" as the Hebrew name for God] as a major Bible, although this one has now been mostly supplanted by the NWT.

BTW, your statement elsewhere notwithstanding, and despite the mischaracterizing 'pigeonholing' of that statement (and similar mischaracterizations I have heard from others of the KJVO persuasion, regarding this subject), as to the JW group using "MVs", and that there is really no effective differences between all the "MVs" (for the purpose of 'lumping' together primarily the NIV and to a lesser degree the NASB, with the NWT), I suspect you will have long since have found a hundred JW types who do "stand on KJV" before you will find the first one who is 'packing' any of the NIV, ESV, HCSB,or NASB.

The issues for the Jehovah Witness are always primarily works salvation, and the Deity of Christ, not some perceived one MV vs. whatever other version is appropriate.

Ed

 

[Eliyahu]

I have some beach front property in Tennessee for sale if your interested? :thumbs:

You just parrot the same Greek text which you don't know how to read, don't you?

 

[Eliyahu]

You might want to argue this one with the effective founder and first President of the Jehovah Witness organization, Charles Tate Russell, who, in fact, used (or probably more accurately abused) the KJV as the Bible.

Don't you understand the reason why Russel used KJV in the beginning? Which Bible was available else than KJV, that was still popular among them? Even if he had to use KJV, he must have mentioned that the original texts disagree with KJV, etc, for the excuses. He couldn't continue to deceive the people with KJV, and therefore they returned to the modern versions and to NWT, and the basis of NWT is the same as the one for the most of the modern versions.

Granted, later the Jehovah Witness group began to use the ASV [primarily because of its fairly widespread availability in the US (as compared to the availability of the YLT or DBY, which although likely would have served their purpose about as well, but which version is and was somewhat more difficult to come by in the US), and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society managed to acquire rights to print the ASV, and have, in fact, printed and distributed nearly 900K copies over the years. In fact, they will happily provide you with an ASV (or ED or NWT) today (at no cost to you, no less, as they do still print all these versions), and the 5500+ uses of the term "Jehovah" as the Hebrew name for God] as a major Bible, although this one has now been mostly supplanted by the NWT.

BTW, your statement elsewhere notwithstanding, and despite the mischaracterizing 'pigeonholing' of that statement (and similar mischaracterizations I have heard from others of the KJVO persuasion, regarding this subject), as to the JW group using "MVs", and that there is really no effective differences between all the "MVs" (for the purpose of 'lumping' together primarily the NIV and to a lesser degree the NASB, with the NWT), I suspect you will have long since have found a hundred JW types who do "stand on KJV" before you will find the first one who is 'packing' any of the NIV, ESV, HCSB,or NASB.

The issues for the Jehovah Witness are always primarily works salvation, and the Deity of Christ, not some perceived one MV vs. whatever other version is appropriate.

Ed

Why do you think JW based their translation on the same texts as the ones for the modern versions?
They know their own problems very well and therefore they couldn't continue to use KJV, and that's why they moved to Modern Versions.
In fact I attended JW for about 6 months in my school days, and then left there. Since then I was interested in saving the JW's.
I have debated with JW many times and noticed that they try to refer to any of the modern versions to get the support for their NWT, but they rejected KJV all the time. 1 Tim 3:16 is the good example. Try to convince them with 1 Tim 3:16 of the KJV, then they reject the veracity of theos( θεοσ) there quickly. They don't continue the argument based on the Theos ( θεοσ) in 1 Tim 3:16.

 

[Tater77]

You just parrot the same Greek text which you don't know how to read, don't you?

I didn't parrot anything in that post. What are you talking about?

I was making fun of your gullibility since you obviously believe in that crazy trash.

Betcha I can read Greek better than you any day!!!!!!

 

[Eliyahu]

He said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."


Following the apostles? Peter denied Jesus how many times? At one time Paul did not get along with Mark?

Jn 16:13, 14, "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you."


Jesus Christ is both the way and the truth in Jn 14:6 and the Holy Spirit is the guide who shows the way to the truth in Jn 16:14.

In your eyes, is Peter still denying the Lord Jesus?
So, you don't think you have to learn from Paul since he didn;t get along with Mark, do you?

The points are here. Don't you think Jesus wouldn't check about the Salvation of the posters if He comes to this board?
Didn't Paul ask the Believers if they are indeed saved? But this is not allowed here in BB, and therefore if they come here, they will be kicked out of here.

 

[Eliyahu]

I didn't parrot anything in that post. What are you talking about?

I was making fun of your gullibility since you obviously believe in that crazy trash.

Betcha I can read Greek better than you any day!!!!!!

Then don't carry that Greek banner all the time. Have you ever read it? Is the Bible a trash for you?

 

[EdSutton]

You just parrot the same Greek text which you don't know how to read, don't you?

FTR, Tater77 has previously claimed to be able to read the Greek Language.

Ed

 

[Thinkingstuff]

FTR, Tater77 has previously claimed to be able to read the Greek Language.

Ed

Cool. What does the banner say? I'm curious. Its .... Well.... its... Greek to me.

does he read Klingon? BTW I would like to learn to read Greek whats the best way to go about it? I want quick results.

 

[EdSutton]

In your eyes, is Peter still denying the Lord Jesus?
So, you don't think you have to learn from Paul since he didn;t get along with Mark, do you?

The points are here. Don't you think Jesus wouldn't check about the Salvation of the posters if He comes to this board?
Didn't Paul ask the Believers if they are indeed saved? But this is not allowed here in BB, and therefore if they come here, they will be kicked out of here.

If Paul didn't get along with Mark, as you put it, how come he later told Timothy to bring Mark along to minister with them? (II Tim. 4:11) I believe you will find, if you actually bother to read the text, that Paul's disagreement and dissension was with Barnabas, and he apparently thought that Mark could use a little bit of "growing up", if you will. I suggest I have observed a few 'Marks' myself, lately who stand a bit more maturity.

FTR, No, I do not find that Paul ever asked any believer if they were actually saved (although he did tell them to examine themselves), but I sure can find several BB members who seemingly can hardly wait to ask that question.

Ed

 

[gb93433]

In your eyes, is Peter still denying the Lord Jesus?
So, you don't think you have to learn from Paul since he didn;t get along with Mark, do you?

Your theology missed the mark and found wanting when you suggested that one follow the apostles. Sounds very similar to Mormon theology and other denominations who abide by ecclesiastical tradition. However my Bible sugests something much different. It says in Heb. 12:1-2, "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

 

[EdSutton]

Cool. What does the banner say? I'm curious. Its .... Well.... its... Greek to me.

does he read Klingon? BTW I would like to learn to read Greek (sic) whats the best way to go about it? I want quick results.

Take a Greek class, I'd suggest. One can find one fairly easily in on-line 'Distance Education', I believe, if a structured class does not suit one, complete with needed tapes, books on grammar, etc., considering the number of Colleges, Universities, Seminaries and Bible Schools that have courses and sources available.

I would personally recommend "on-site" attendance in any class on any subject, Biblical, theological or otherwise, as preferable, when possible, simply for the 'hands-on' effect. One advantage of DE, is that one can actually 'speed up' (or slow down, as the case may be) the process, via the flexibility, in fitting the course into one's schedule, however.

Regardless, I would suggest that one not delude themselves, with some 'Diploma Mill' where one receives sub-standard instruction, in any event.

Ask around. Those who are "in the know" will no doubt be able to give you acceptable advice, here.

I really have no idea about what language(s) Tater77 (or anyone else, for that matter) may actually be able to read, nor do I particularly care. (Your remark about "Klingon" doesn't really merit a response, BTW.) However, Elihayu had previously made the insinuation that Tater77 did not understand Greek, with his questions in post #75, to which post Tater77 responded that he did, in fact, read the Greek language (post #79), and which post I was remembering and referencing after I read post #123, where Eliyahu had apparently ignored what Tater77 had posted earlier.

FTR, I normally respond to posts as I come to them, if and when I deem a response to be appropriate, and don't usually read 'backwards' in the thread, thus I may often not yet get to a later post, that may actually answer something to which I am responding.

Ed

 

[Eliyahu]

If Paul didn't get along with Mark, as you put it, how come he later told Timothy to bring Mark along to minister with them? (II Tim. 4:11) I believe you will find, if you actually bother to read the text, that Paul's disagreement and dissension was with Barnabas, and he apparently thought that Mark could use a little bit of "growing up", if you will. I suggest I have observed a few 'Marks' myself, lately who stand a bit more maturity.

This is what I have been saying. gb brought this issue, pointing out Paul's disagreement with Barnabas about Mark. Paul and Peter are the great Believers despite their problems in their early stage.

FTR, No, I do not find that Paul ever asked any believer if they were actually saved (although he did tell them to examine themselves), but I sure can find several BB members who seemingly can hardly wait to ask that question.

Ed

1) Read 2 Cor 13:5. As for false brethren, read Galatians 2:4, Titus 1:16, and also 2 Cor 11:4 is a good indication to discern the spirit.
2) John mentioned it in 1 Jn 4:1, 1 Jn 2:19
3) Peter mentioned this point in 2 Peter 2:1.

 

[Askjo]

What kind of spirit is working behind the modern versions?

The Bible gives us the hints:

Isaiah 7:

8For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people. 9And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.


Head of the modern versions is the Nestle-Alland, and the Head of NA is Westcott-Hort, and the Head of WH is Alexandrian Texts which include B, A, Aleph, p75, p66 etc. the Head of Alexandrian Texts is Vatican Text B which was preserved and modified by Roman Catholic which performs all types of Idolatry, Goddess worship, Inquisition, persecution of the Bible.
They also use BHS, which was formulated by Gerhardt Kittel who was imprisoned as a War criminal at Nuremberg Tribunal.

By following the modern versions, you are following the Leavens of the RCC which is the centre of all the paganism.

As I told in the other thread, JW cannot stand on KJV.

RCC pray to Mary, which means that they believe Mary as the Omnipresent and Omniscient Being, which means a goddess.

So, RCC believe many gods and goddess, and the Trinity is one of many gods for them.

Minority texts like B, A, Aleph, p75 are nothing but the local texts which contain lots of errors and modifications.

Preach it! AMEN!!

 

[Eliyahu]

Your theology missed the mark and found wanting when you suggested that one follow the apostles. Sounds very similar to Mormon theology and other denominations who abide by ecclesiastical tradition.

This is a wild accusation. You don't know me. Did I mention that we should believe in Paul as a god, as RCC which pray to Paul, Mary, Apostles, do? Remember RCC use the Bible based on the same Greek Text as the ones for Modern Versions.

However my Bible sugests something much different. It says in Heb. 12:1-2, "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

You insinuate that Paul disagreed with Jesus Christ. Even your quotation may have been written by Paul who said this:

1 Corinthians 11:
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

 

[Eliyahu]

Again, you simply don’t know what you are talking about. TC takes place any time you have to decide between two or more variants. Textual criticism is “the investigation of the text of the Old and New Testaments with the aim of setting forth the authentic readings of the autrographs, as against spurious readings which have found their way into some manuscripts, either from copyists’ errors or by design” (Alan Cairns, Dictionary of Theology Terms, p. 371).
Take for instance Mark 16:9-20. Some say it should not be there. You believe it should be. You are practicing textual criticism by saying “That’s authentic.”

The own confession by a certain person is important. Even if you categorize the Biblical Discernment by me as a work of TC, it is wrong because I never calim it to be, and I never use any tool from the TC.
Let me ask you the simple question. Did you choose to be a Believer or were you chosen to be a Believer of Jesus?

No, I didn’t say anything of the sort. The fact that one verse doesn’t apply to me doesn’t say anything about any other verse or teaching. You have a classic example of right doctrine from the wrong text. The Holy Spirit can lead us to truth as 1 John says. John 14:26 simply doesn’t say that to us.

I will answer you for the rest of your points later.

As for this point of Jn 14:26, if you chose to reject the application of this verse to your life, how do you make decision about which verse should be applied to you?
Does TC tell you about this?

If you can reject the application of one verse to your life, then you may reject another verse for some other reasons as well. How many verses among what Jesus mentioned would you reject ?

You sound like having another god in your heart, over the Holy Spirit and over Jesus Christ.You should clean it up and devote yourself entirely to the Holy Spirit who can teach you for the discernment of the Texts and Mss for Bible

 

[EdSutton]

1) Read 2 Cor 13:5. As for false brethren, read Galatians 2:4, Titus 1:16, and also 2 Cor 11:4 is a good indication to discern the spirit.
2) John mentioned it in 1 Jn 4:1, 1 Jn 2:19
3) Peter mentioned this point in 2 Peter 2:1.

II Cor 13:5 is what I was alluding to, without specifically giving the reference.

The verse reads as follows:

5 Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not yourselves perceive that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? (LIT)

I do not see that Paul asked them if they were saved, at all, in this verse. I simply cannot exegete this from the actual words Paul uses, here.

The other verses are irrelevant to the point I was making, as they are all warnings against false prophets, apostles, and teachers, and not questioning the salvation of his audience.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

The own confession by a certain person is important. Even if you categorize the Biblical Discernment by me as a work of TC, it is wrong because I never calim it to be, and I never use any tool from the TC.
Let me ask you the simple question. Did you choose to be a Believer or were you chosen to be a Believer of Jesus?



I will answer you for the rest of your points later.

As for this point of Jn 14:26, if you chose to reject the application of this verse to your life, how do you make decision about which verse should be applied to you?
Does TC tell you about this?

If you can reject the application of one verse to your life, then you may reject another verse for some other reasons as well. How many verses among what Jesus mentioned would you reject ?

You sound like having another god in your heart, over the Holy Spirit and over Jesus Christ.You should clean it up and devote yourself entirely to the Holy Spirit who can teach you for the discernment of the Texts and Mss for Bible

Speaking of the making of "wild accusations"...

Ed

 

[Pastor Larry]

The own confession by a certain person is important. Even if you categorize the Biblical Discernment by me as a work of TC, it is wrong because I never calim it to be, and I never use any tool from the TC.

The only reason you don't claim it because you don't know what you are talking about. What is important is reality. If the police pulls you over when you are driving 15 over, your confession doesn't matter. And so here, the fact that you don't confess to practicing TC doesn't matter. You do it. The only question is, Do you do it well?

Let me ask you the simple question. Did you choose to be a Believer or were you chosen to be a Believer of Jesus?

Like every other believer, I was chosen by God to believe, and as a result I chose to believe. That's basic Soteriology 101. (Soteriology is the theological name of the doctrine of salvation.)

As for this point of Jn 14:26, if you chose to reject the application of this verse to your life, how do you make decision about which verse should be applied to you?

By study.

Does TC tell you about this?

No, TC is not equipped to answer those questions. That's like asking your oncologist to fix your car.

If you can reject the application of one verse to your life, then you may reject another verse for some other reasons as well. How many verses among what Jesus mentioned would you reject ?

I don't believe I reject any verses that apply to me. As I study, I seek understanding.

The fact that you misapply a verse doesn't mean it applies to you. You can claim John 14:26 all day long, but it still won't apply to you.

You sound like having another god in your heart, over the Holy Spirit and over Jesus Christ.

Then you are not listening well.

You should clean it up and devote yourself entirely to the Holy Spirit who can teach you for the discernment of the Texts and Mss for Bible

I think it is apparent that I have listened far better than you.

The stuff you are saying here is simply incorrect. It does not reflect reality. And therefore, it is dishonoring to God, and you are dishonoring to God by trying to infect others with things that aren't true. You say, "Hath God said?" and in so doing you cast doubt on the Scriptures out of your own inadequacy. Those who don't suffer from that inadequacy see easily through it. Unfortunately, you seem too prideful to learn.

 

[Eliyahu]

Speaking of the making of "wild accusations"...
Ed

Sometimes, I admit, I make the contradiction with my own statement. But I emphasized the too much reliance on the TC.