Calvinistic Application Part 2

[Jarthur001]

Me4Him,

Lets be clear about our lines of debate here.

You said...

because God isn't willing for "ANY" to perish.

to which I replied..

What about Cain?

and this is your reply..

If God doesn't so much as tempt man to sin, he certainly isn't going to predestine man to sin.

All sin belongs to man, not God.

Let me ask as clear as I can. You said God is not willing for ANY to perish...which of course is in the Bible.
The story of Cain is in the Bible....He perished....died in sin.

Now if this statement is saying as you claim that Gods intent is to save all of mankind and God knew Cain would not believe, why did God not save the whole world before Cain?

Could God have done this? YES
Would this saved the whole world? YES

But God did not. Not only that but Cain was but the 1st sinner to reject God.....how many more have rejected God.

Each day that Christ does not come back the numbers grow. The longer He waits...the more go to Hell.

Can God stop this? Does he have such a intent as you say...or is there a better meaning of the text?

 

[Jarthur001]

Not surprisingly, you overlooked the whole point of my post; the subject I entered on in the debate is common grace and you want to only engage in proof-texting the whole TULIP. I addressed your verses in one simple line:

Why do you keep telling me what I already know?

“Now we would both agree, I believe, that man can not come to God unless called.”

This is not a answer. Let me be clear. You posted many verses trying to prove a point about God telling man to seek God. I posted one that said man does not seek God.

I asked are both true.

Does God ask man to seek him and does man not seek God????

I then went directly back to the differences in our interpretations of common grace, in which, you have no credible defense against my quote that you originally objected to:

“Grace is no longer grace, if it does not include the saving intent of the Giver”

Yes...
I have address this many times. You have in your head what Calvinism is..and you reject my words.

I have asked you more than once about other grace. lets try again.

I have 3 kids. It is Gods grace that I have those kids. Does this grace include saving grace? Do non-believers have kids too? Yes...of course.

So....let me ask again...and please don't dodge.

Is all grace saving grace??

The only other point I made was that you were the one dodging by trying to start proof-texting the Predestinarian’s view of Total Depravity, which is another debate; and that is where I don’t care to go with you, into a circular scriptural food fight, which is your typical MO. If I did care to go there with you it would be nothing more than a cat and mouse adventure of me trying to get my claws into a rodent that is jumping, twisting, running in circles for its life while looking for hole before I pinned it on the logical conclusion of such a doctrine ending in fatalism. But sorry, this tiger isn’t that hungry for mouse.

Yet when all readers read this thread all can see you are the one that post your points, (seeking) and reject all other post saying...(I don't want to go there).

There is no twisting...You sit there with your ears covered saying..I don't want to hear your reply.

 

[Benjamin]

Why do you keep telling me what I already know?


This is not a answer. Let me be clear. You posted many verses trying to prove a point about God telling man to seek God. I posted one that said man does not seek God.

I asked are both true.

Does God ask man to seek him and does man not seek God????


Yes...
I have address this many times. You have in your head what Calvinism is..and you reject my words.

I have asked you more than once about other grace. lets try again.

I have 3 kids. It is Gods grace that I have those kids. Does this grace include saving grace? Do non-believers have kids too? Yes...of course.

So....let me ask again...and please don't dodge.

Is all grace saving grace??


Yet when all readers read this thread all can see you are the one that post your points, (seeking) and reject all other post saying...(I don't want to go there).

There is no twisting...You sit there with your ears covered saying..I don't want to hear your reply.

Yes, God’s atoning grace is a true offer to every man (and woman) that comes into this world. Went all over that, not sure how you missed it, maybe go back and try to read my posts again while searching for the key words “light” “judgment” “conviction” “truth” “every person” “whole world”...

When you put your kids in bed at night do you tell them “God may have given you some of what we Calvies call common grace with no hope of salvation but just maybe He specially selected you out to receive some of that Calvie special grace that He holds back for those like Daddy whom He specially preprogrammed. Sorry, but that’s just how God is, He designed some people with no hope, good night and good luck”?

James, I’m afraid the Calvinist’, so called, “doctrines of grace” view a much smaller perspective of God’s loving grace concerning the atonement than mine when they start splitting “this” apart to fit their prideful systematic theology with some sort of two-fold/double-minded divine nature of God’s grace. I‘m not going to keep repeating myself while going in circles, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I prefer to save the intensity for a one on one with those poor souls who are seeking God and have only heard the doctrines of exclusive grace.

 

[Rippon]

What Rippon?!? Do you not believe the Bible?

Your reply to my post was quite immature. Instead of responding with specifics you go juvenile. If you really think that I do not believe the Bible on particular issues why take such an infantile approach?Grow up Benny.

 

[Rippon]

Yes, God’s atoning grace is a true offer to every man (and woman) that comes into this world.

Why do you think God's grace amounts to a mere offer?

James, I’m afraid the Calvinist’, so called, “doctrines of grace” view a much smaller perspective of God’s loving grace concerning the atonement than mine ...

If God's grace is intended for each and every person who has and shall live, then none will experience everlasting condemnation. However, the Bible's statements upon the subject are at variance with yours. The Lord's grace is set upon His elect only. Only His elect are given His grace. Grace is not granted to each and every person -- head-for-head. You do agree that ultimately the elect alone will be in glory with the Lord --- do you not?

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes, God’s atoning grace is a true offer to every man (and woman) that comes into this world. Went all over that, not sure how you missed it, maybe go back and try to read my posts again while searching for the key words “light” “judgment” “conviction” “truth” “every person” “whole world”...

Ben..it is real easy. Why do you keep dodging???

Lets do a yes and no.

God gave me a new car. That is by the grace of God.
Will this grace of getting a car save me?

YES

NO

???

When you put your kids in bed at night

Those days are long past gone ben. But I understand your point..lets go on..

do you tell them “God may have given you some of what we Calvies call common grace

They know this...yes. They seem to understand it. yes

with no hope of salvation

I never told them this, for no Calvinist would say it. You again have a poor understanding of Calvinism even with you saying that you were once close to it. No wonder you fight it...you don't understand it.

We preach hope. Christ came to save sinners. That is hope. God hates sin. We don't tell everone that God loves them, making them think God is just cool with their sin. That is a lie. God hates sin and they need to repent and come to God. And people sin.

but just maybe He specially selected you out to receive some of that Calvie special grace

Yes..I told them something like that. They will only know if God calls them. The way most are called are through the hearing, reading of Gods Word. I tell them to read...read...read.

that He holds back for those like Daddy whom He specially preprogrammed.

Again...poor understanding of Calvinism. How many times have you been told and still you see it as programmed. preprogrammed at that...which is kinda silly if you think about it. All programming is pre...is it not?

Sorry, but that’s just how God is

,
I have been telling you for years that you don't understand...now it is clear. Now please take my word for it....for the 1st time.....THAT IS NOT CALVINISM.

Why not ask if you don't understand???

He designed some people with no hope, good night and good luck”?

No such think as luck...so I would never say that.

James, I’m afraid...

NO KIDDING!!!!

soory I had to do that one.. Great timing. Thanks

James, I’m afraid the Calvinist’, so called, “doctrines of grace” view a much smaller perspective of God’s loving grace concerning the atonement than mine when they start splitting “this” apart to fit their prideful systematic theology with some sort of two-fold/double-minded divine nature of God’s grace. I‘m not going to keep repeating myself while going in circles, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I prefer to save the intensity for a one on one with those poor souls who are seeking God and have only heard the doctrines of exclusive grace.

:sleep:Notice no answer?

 

[Me4Him]

Let me ask as clear as I can. You said God is not willing for ANY to perish...which of course is in the Bible.
The story of Cain is in the Bible....He perished....died in sin.

Now if this statement is saying as you claim that Gods intent is to save all of mankind and God knew Cain would not believe, why did God not save the whole world before Cain?

Could God have done this? YES
Would this saved the whole world? YES

But God did not. Not only that but Cain was but the 1st sinner to reject God.....how many more have rejected God.

Each day that Christ does not come back the numbers grow. The longer He waits...the more go to Hell.

Can God stop this? Does he have such a intent as you say...or is there a better meaning of the text?

God has a "Schedule" for the planet and at the "Appointed time" it will come to an end.

They say, half of all the people whoever lived are alive today, and prior to the end a "falling away" from God will occur, which we see.

Man (Adam) was given stewardship over the planet, man is free to make the planet a living heaven or a living hell,

Much like the "Vineyard" leased out to husbandman which killed the owner "SON" to keep everything for themselves.

At the "appointed time" man will be judged for his stewardship, did he let "Thorns/weeds" (Sin) grow or did he "dress and keep" the planet as God instructed.

Man and his decisions are Judged, not God decisions, if man wants to believe, that's man's perogative, the reward is the Grace of Salvation,

If man choses not to believe, then he is left in sin, this isn't "God's will", but then God's will isn't making the decision, either way,

If there had been any other way God could have accomplished his will of none perishing, we wouldn't have the plan of salvation we have today,

God has his reasons for giving man the ability to chose between salvation/condemnation, and it's a reason that takes precedence over his will none perish.

Does that explain why things are the way they are, today???

 

[Jarthur001]

God has a "Schedule" for the planet and at the "Appointed time" it will come to an end.

They say, half of all the people whoever lived are alive today, and prior to the end a "falling away" from God will occur, which we see.

Man (Adam) was given stewardship over the planet, man is free to make the planet a living heaven or a living hell,

Much like the "Vineyard" leased out to husbandman which killed the owner "SON" to keep everything for themselves.

At the "appointed time" man will be judged for his stewardship, did he let "Thorns/weeds" (Sin) grow or did he "dress and keep" the planet as God instructed.

Man and his decisions are Judged, not God decisions, if man wants to believe, that's man's perogative, the reward is the Grace of Salvation,

If man choses not to believe, then he is left in sin, this isn't "God's will", but then God's will isn't making the decision, either way,

If there had been any other way God could have accomplished his will of none perishing, we wouldn't have the plan of salvation we have today,

God has his reasons for giving man the ability to chose between salvation/condemnation, and it's a reason that takes precedence over his will none perish.

Does that explain why things are the way they are, today???

Why do you keep passing over what I ask?????????????

This is but rude by you. Show some love man. :godisgood:
*********************************************************

You have posted time and time again, maybe 100 times that ONE verse for over a month now. Each time you bold "MIGHT BE".

I have asked you this 3-4 times now..

Is this your point? Are you saying "might" here is used as in possible? It does seem like this is what you are trying to force on the word. Am I right?

It was your best line....and now that someone calls you on it, you have nothing to say???? What's with that?
*******************************************************
Now this last post.
Maybe you didn't understand what I asked. Let me reread it and take it one step at a time.

You say Gods intent was or is to save all of mankind.

There would be roughly 100 deaths each minute worldwide. How many of those deaths are believers? I mean..I'm sure you don't know a real number, so just give a guess.

Would you say 80%?

 

[Jedi Knight]

"The story of Cain is in the Bible....He perished....died in sin. " Do we know that he died without repentance? Reason I ask is God still dealt with Cain after the murder of his brother. The Lord even put a mark on him for a warning to other no to kill Cain. Just a thought:type:

 

[Jarthur001]

"The story of Cain is in the Bible....He perished....died in sin. " Do we know that he died without repentance? Reason I ask is God still dealt with Cain after the murder of his brother. The Lord even put a mark on him for a warning to other no to kill Cain. Just a thought:type:

hello Jedi,

Thanks for at least responding to what was asked. You ask if I know? Yes..Pretty sure of it. But before I go there, allow me to show that the point still remains.

Why? Well if not Cain, than Joe, or Tom, or Sue. You see unless you are a Universalist, at some point in Time someone goes to Hell. And many more follow to this day. Maybe you would offer a guess to how many go to Hell each day. Out of the roughly 140,000 people that die each day, do you feel maybe 10% go to Hell? If so, that means around 14000 got to Hell each day. This year going, by that number you would have almost 5 million people going to Hell. Next year, another 5 million people. Each day...more people....till the day God stops it.

Now why is Christ waiting? I say its not about those going to Hell. Its all about the last elect believing. Each that happens, its done.

As to Cain...

Cain is in the hall of shame.

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Now he is in the Hall of Faith as well....but not in a good way.

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

But to seal let home...lets look at

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


Wicked one here is the Devil. Cain belonged to The Devil. Read the full passage in 1 John 3 and you will see what I mean.


Thanks again....

James

 

[Jedi Knight]

Howdy Jarthur, I agree ......if I was a betting man I would agree Cain died in his sins. Scripture many times shows him in the dark compared to others. I also agree there is alot of people dying in there sins"vastly"more than the redeemed. But God is going to fill up his house where Lucifer and his followers once enjoyed.:type:

 

[Me4Him]

Why do you keep passing over what I ask?????????????

This is but rude by you. Show some love man. :godisgood:
*********************************************************

I guess you missed the point, that man having the "free will" to chose between God or the world takes precedence "OVER" GOD'S WILL that none perish.

You have posted time and time again, maybe 100 times that ONE verse for over a month now. Each time you bold "MIGHT BE".

You say Gods intent was or is to save all of mankind.

When you say God "predestine", by "his will", for some to perish, after God said not any perish by his will/predestine, you make God out to be lying.

If God/Jesus did all that was necessary to saved the whole world, then why do people perish, God's will, or "man's will"???

God doesn't want "robots", in heaven or on this planet, the only way to separate the good from the bad is to give man a choice,

those who believe/agree with God, will live with God, those who don't, won't.


Man having "free will" is a perquisite, not only for this world but also heaven, no robots in heaven, only those who believed/agreed with God.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Benjamin
Yes, God’s atoning grace is a true offer to every man (and woman) that comes into this world. Went all over that, not sure how you missed it, maybe go back and try to read my posts again while searching for the key words “light” “judgment” “conviction” “truth” “every person” “whole world”...

Ben..it is real easy. Why do you keep dodging???

Lets do a yes and no.

God gave me a new car. That is by the grace of God.
Will this grace of getting a car save me?

YES

NO

???

James, do you NOT see the first very first word in my quote that you posted and explanation in my answer?!?

You are doing nothing more with your (this type) question than trying to elaborate a two-fold/double-minded grace of God, while ignoring the subject of the Divine nature of the atoning grace that God gave to very man. You are trying to, and solely relying on, injecting a fallacy into the argument by using a loaded question, example: “Are you still beating your wife?” “No”, leads to the presumption that I once did, and Yes, is an affirmation that I am beating my wife. Problem is, I don’t beat my wife at all so the question is not getting at the truth of the matter, it has exactly the same type motive as your question; no way to get to the truth of the subject. It is in the least a logical fallacy and leans toward a desperate and dishonest way of debate at worst.

To make it clear, I do not believe God has one type of grace in general for all people and another special type of grace for His special selected people when it comes to atoning grace being common to all man (that is the subject) and that is what I have been focus on and elaborating on.

I have been spelling this out to you but you have your blinders on to everything I have said while you only focus on your fallacy while accusing me of dodging the your silly question.

One last time, here it is another example with a similar MO:

Originally posted by Jarthur:
This is not a answer. Let me be clear. You posted many verses trying to prove a point about God telling man to seek God. I posted one that said man does not seek God.

I asked are both true.

Does God ask man to seek him and does man not seek God????

Calvinist and non-Calvinist are generally in fundamental agreement on depravity in that it would be impossible for man to obey the command to repent and believe if it were not for God’s grace. James, when I said we would be in agreement that man can not come to God unless called, that clearly addressed your question of man not seeking God. I’m not sure why you are having so much problem making the connection that I answered your question. I even quoted Jesus words in John 12:32 “And I, if I be lifted up from the Earth, will draw all men unto me”.

It should be clear from my posts that I believe every man has the light he needs to seek God and will be held accountable for not seeking the truth, and this, while being judged in truth. Again, that should answer your question.

I have also been very fixed and upfront on presenting the differences in our views of God’s grace and in describing my view in particular (Post 46). You have ignored, overlooked or simply disregarded my effort while you offered very little information or even a rebuttal of my perception of your view. At this point I don’t know what to think about you (I would like to think you are just not reading and analyzing very carefully rather than purposely trying to form a smokescreen with some sort of game.) but either way, if you can not grasp that I have been addressing the subject of common grace and done so in detail, then the communication is left nonproductive, which leaves me no reason to continue in this type debate.

When simply replying that I have been dodging your questions is… well, as mildly as I can put it, getting this debate nowhere and makes it a waste of time from my point of view concerning rational and logical debate.

I do apologize as I do now see I should have at least “tried” to spell the problem out for you rather than just becoming more aggressive.

I’ll bow out now as things are too far away from the subject and getting too personal; maybe next time.

Peace Bro

 

[Jarthur001]

I guess you missed the point, that man having the "free will" to chose between God or the world takes precedence "OVER" GOD'S WILL that none perish.

Well...I knew it all the time that this is the end logic of Arminian doctrine, but in all my years this is time I have seen someone admit it.


In the context that you used it...Mans Free-will is superior than Gods will.

I never thought I would see the day....but there it is...FREE-WILLISM 101

Man has more power than God.

When you say God "predestine", by "his will", for some to perish, after God said not any perish by his will/predestine, you make God out to be lying.

Romans nine...

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

If God/Jesus did all that was necessary to saved the whole world, then why do people perish, God's will, or "man's will"???

God doesn't want "robots", in heaven or on this planet, the only way to separate the good from the bad is to give man a choice,

those who believe/agree with God, will live with God, those who don't, won't.


Man having "free will" is a perquisite, not only for this world but also heaven, no robots in heaven, only those who believed/agreed with God.

Again...very very poor understanding of Calvinism. You need to write this down so you will not forget it.

No one is claiming to be robots but people that have not a clue what they are talking about. Its like if you can't get the Calvinist with scripture, you can always try to get them to believe they are robots. That is but a child's game that you like to play.

We are not forced into salvation, but rather we gladly run into the arms of God once the bind-less of sin is gone. It is mans choice at that point, for God has chosen the sinner and gave him a new birth to understand that which he was unable before. He wants to be saved, where before he rejected God.

Now you are free to call us robots if you want, but know this, you only show your lack of understanding when you do.

However, it should be each and every believers desire to be "controlled" by the Spirit that which you want to deny even in Heaven.

That is sad

 

[Jarthur001]

before you go ben....

Again let me ask you.

How does getting a car lead to salvation?

 

[Me4Him]

Well...I knew it all the time that this is the end logic of Arminian doctrine, but in all my years this is time I have seen someone admit it.


In the context that you used it...Mans Free-will is superior than Gods will.

I never thought I would see the day....but there it is...FREE-WILLISM 101

Man has more power than God.

Man's "unbelief" trumps God's will none perish, because men do perish, in spite of God's will.

Romans nine...

Yes, I've had that verse quoted many times, God condemns people to hell even though it's against his will,

So do you suppose God predestine these people to hell/wrath, even though it's against his will???

No one is claiming to be robots but people that have not a clue what they are talking about. Its like if you can't get the Calvinist with scripture, you can always try to get them to believe they are robots. That is but a child's game that you like to play.

When God predestine, you're "pre programmed", there are no "MIGHT BE" saved where "Sovereign will" is "Controlling".

We are not forced into salvation, but rather we gladly run into the arms of God once the bind-less of sin is gone. It is mans choice at that point, for God has chosen the sinner and gave him a new birth to understand that which he was unable before.

"Faith" is not a "gift of God", it's a "personal choice" (free will) Abraham had to have Faith before righteousness was imputed to him,

It's because "we believe", by Faith, not "knowledge", that righteousness is imputed to us, then we get the knowledge.

The Free gift of Jesus is to "ALL MEN", if Faith was a gift given by God, then God would be "obligated" to give his gift to as many as Jesus gift was given, else you'd have God/Jesus at odds with each other.

Calvin failed to understand that God himself will not do anything to stand in the way of Jesus's death for the sins of the world that the whole world might be saved.

A person's "unbelief" is the only thing standing in the way of them being saved, not God, not predestination.

Now you are free to call us robots if you want, but know this, you only show your lack of understanding when you do.

However, it should be each and every believers desire to be "controlled" by the Spirit that which you want to deny even in Heaven.

That is sad

There's a lot I don't know, but I learn a little something every day,

But there's one thing I know for sure, Jesus's mission/death to saved the whole world and God predestine some to hell, destroys any "one mind, one accord" between Jesus and God.

 

[OldRegular]

I guess you missed the point, that man having the "free will" to chose between God or the world takes precedence "OVER" GOD'S WILL that none perish.

This appears to me to be heretical. If man's will is superior to that of God then there is no God.

 

[Benjamin]

before you go ben....

Again let me ask you.

How does getting a car lead to salvation?

Thanks for confirming my suspicions of your intentions.

 

[Jarthur001]

Man's "unbelief" trumps God's will none perish, because men do perish, in spite of God's will.

There we have it again folks. This is not Arminian...but pure free-willism. Mans will trumps Gods will. That is truly sad. I want to know if other Arminians will agree with this line.

Yes, I've had that verse quoted many times, God condemns people to hell even though it's against his will,

Again...God is forced to do something against his will. God has no control at all, if man trumps him.

So do you suppose God predestine these people to hell/wrath, even though it's against his will???

Predestined is never used of the unbeliever. I'm sure you have been told this before. But had God, It is God that would have done it all. I have a God that is in full control and power at all times and needs not answer to man.

When God predestine, you're "pre programmed", there are no "MIGHT BE" saved where "Sovereign will" is "Controlling".

1st..You need not use "pre" and " Programmed" together. All programming is "pre".
2nd...No one is programmed (robots)...but we have been over that before. Do you need a pen to write this down?
3rd You misuse the word Might all the time.

Let me show you what I mean.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Might = Able

"Faith" is not a "gift of God", it's a "personal choice" (free will) Abraham had to have Faith before righteousness was imputed to him,

You know faith and believe is the same basic meaning. maybe you don't know this verse..

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

Romans 8 again speaks of Gods love.

WHO will separate us for Gods love? WHO????

Paul says no one.

It's because "we believe", by Faith, not "knowledge", that righteousness is imputed to us, then we get the knowledge.

We have faith by faith?

The Free gift of Jesus is to "ALL MEN", if Faith was a gift given by God, then God would be "obligated" to give his gift to as many as Jesus gift was given, else you'd have God/Jesus at odds with each other.

WHO will separate us for Gods love? WHO????

Calvin failed to understand that God himself will not do anything to stand in the way of Jesus's death for the sins of the world that the whole world might be saved.

What does Calvin have to do with this? We are talking the Bible. And BTW..your wrong.

WHO will separate us for Gods love? WHO????

A person's "unbelief" is the only thing standing in the way of them being saved, not God, not predestination.

Well...I agree with that.

There's a lot I don't know, but I learn a little something every day,

good

 

[Jarthur001]

Thanks for confirming my suspicions of your intentions.

see ya next time...

peace ben