Calvinistic Application Part 2

[Jarthur001]

Howdy Jarthur, I agree ......if I was a betting man I would agree Cain died in his sins. Scripture many times shows him in the dark compared to others. I also agree there is alot of people dying in there sins"vastly"more than the redeemed. But God is going to fill up his house where Lucifer and his followers once enjoyed.:type:

I agree

in Christ...james

 

[webdog]

There we have it again folks. This is not Arminian...but pure free-willism. Mans will trumps Gods will. That is truly sad. I want to know if other Arminians will agree with this line.

Depends on the will of God (there is more than one).

It's God's will that I don't sin...yet I still sin. Reconcile that with man's will and God's will.

 

[Me4Him]

This appears to me to be heretical. If man's will is superior to that of God then there is no God.

Maybe God did "predestine" you to be ignorant of the scripture,

If that's the case, might as well throw in the towel, eat/drink and be merry, there's no hope for you or anyone like you. :BangHead:

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by Me4him
I guess you missed the point, that man having the "free will" to chose between God or the world takes precedence "OVER" GOD'S WILL that none perish.

Response by Old Regular
This appears to me to be heretical. If man's will is superior to that of God then there is no God.

Childish response of Me4him
Maybe God did "predestine" you to be ignorant of the scripture,

If that's the case, might as well throw in the towel, eat/drink and be merry, there's no hope for you or anyone like you. :BangHead:

You may make a childish response Me4him but that does not absolve you of making a heretical statement: That your will takes precedence over the will of God.

 

[webdog]

You may make a childish response Me4him but that does not absolve you of making a heretical statement: That your will takes precedence over the will of God.

I would like to hear your reply to my post #82...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I would like to hear your reply to my post #82...

I contend that free will in the modern context is skewed by American determinism and millenia of Greek influence into our theology. I don't see the term free will anywhere in the bible. I think the Hebrews had a different consept of will than what most people do now. One of the reasons free will was so important to the greeks was that it was the one thing they had against horrible vengful gods that played with their life. Something along the lines of "you may curse my life with plague etc but I still have my free will and it defies you." But how free is our will? We are born in sin therefore we are encumbered with sin. If I'm given a choice of leaving a round room by two doors and its dark and one door is hidden in such a way that I could never feel it. How is that really freedom?

 

[webdog]

Was that a reply to my question...because it didn't answer it

 

[OldRegular]

Depends on the will of God (there is more than one).

John Gill disagrees with you but perhaps you are a better theologian than he was.

A Body of Doctrinal Divinity

Book 1—Chapter 11

Of The Will Of God, And The Sovereignty Of It

I shall next show what the will of God is: there is but one will in God; but for our better understanding it, it may be distinguished. I shall not trouble the reader with all the distinctions of it made by men; some are false, and others vain and useless; such as into absolute and conditional, antecedent and consequent, effectual and ineffectual, &c. the distinction of the "secret" and "revealed" will of God has generally obtained among sound divines; the former is properly the will of God, the latter only a manifestation of it. Whatever God has determined within himself, whether to do himself, or to do by others, or to suffer to be done, while it is in his own breast, and is not made known by any event in providence, or by prophecy, that is his secret will; such are the deep things of God, the thoughts of his heart, the counsels and determinations of his mind; which are impenetrable to others; but when these open, by events in providence, or by prophecy, then they become the revealed will of God.

Look Here

It's God's will that I don't sin...yet I still sin. Reconcile that with man's will and God's will.

Perhaps a better question for a Christian would be: If it is God's will that I not sin why do I continue to sin?

I do know this. It is heresy for anyone to teach that the will of man trumps the will of God.

 

[webdog]

John Gill disagrees with you but perhaps you are a better theologian than he was.

I don't measure myself to anyone but Jesus Christ. If you stack man against man, I will say you will be disappointed every time. Nice veiled attack, though...

I shall next show what the will of God is: there is but one will in God; but for our better understanding it, it may be distinguished. I shall not trouble the reader with all the distinctions of it made by men; some are false, and others vain and useless; such as into absolute and conditional, antecedent and consequent, effectual and ineffectual, &c. the distinction of the "secret" and "revealed" will of God has generally obtained among sound divines; the former is properly the will of God, the latter only a manifestation of it. Whatever God has determined within himself, whether to do himself, or to do by others, or to suffer to be done, while it is in his own breast, and is not made known by any event in providence, or by prophecy, that is his secret will; such are the deep things of God, the thoughts of his heart, the counsels and determinations of his mind; which are impenetrable to others; but when these open, by events in providence, or by prophecy, then they become the revealed will of God

Did you mean to post something else from Gill...because that doesn't answer the question either.

Perhaps a better question for a Christian would be: If it is God's will that I not sin why do I continue to sin?

Word it however you wish, but if it's God's will that I sin...and my (or any Christian or unbeliever) will that I do, how can you still say...

It is heresy for anyone to teach that the will of man trumps the will of God.

There is no consistency in that statement whatsoever. Maybe a theologian even greater than Gill can answer it for you

 

[OldRegular]

I don't measure myself to anyone but Jesus Christ. If you stack man against man, I will say you will be disappointed every time. Nice veiled attack, though...
Did you mean to post something else from Gill...because that doesn't answer the question either.
Word it however you wish, but if it's God's will that I sin...and my (or any Christian or unbeliever) will that I do, how can you still say...

There is no consistency in that statement whatsoever. Maybe a theologian even greater than Gill can answer it for you

I thought about my earlier response to your post#82 later.

It is apparent that you believe that the will of man can trump the will of God. If you are correct then there is no point in answering the question since the God of the Bible we claim to worship does not exist.

If you are incorrect then I suggest you take your arrogant error up with God, now or in the afterlife.

It's God's will that I don't sin...yet I still sin. Reconcile that with man's will and God's will.[post #82]

There appears to be a conflict between your above post #82 and your final statement in the referenced post: “Word it however you wish, but if it's God's will that I sin...and my (or any Christian or unbeliever) will that I do, how can you still say...”

MY Bolds.

 

[webdog]

It is apparent that you believe that the will of man can trump the will of God. If you are correct then there is no point in answering the question since the God of the Bible we claim to worship does not exist.

Either you can't answer it correctly or you refuse...but you are dodging the question either way. If it's God's will you don't sin, why do you sin?

There appears to be a conflict between your above post #82 and your final statement in the referenced post: “Word it however you wish, but if it's God's will that I sin...and my (or any Christian or unbeliever) will that I do, how can you still say...”

It was a typo on my part...but come to think of it, in your hyper-calvinist view of God's will, I guess it is God's will that I sin, since my will cannot trump God's.

 

[OldRegular]

Either you can't answer it correctly or you refuse...but you are dodging the question either way. If it's God's will you don't sin, why do you sin?

Tell you what to do since you would not believe any explanation I gave. Read Romans 7, particularly verses 14-25, and John Gills commentary on them. Then if you don't know come back and I will give it a try.

Look Here

It was a typo on my part...but come to think of it, in your hyper-calvinist view of God's will, I guess it is God's will that I sin, since my will cannot trump God's.

Do you know what hyper calvinism is? By the way I am not a Calvinist as I have noted several times on this Forum. Calvin held many beliefs that I do not. I do believe in the Biblical Doctrines of Grace.

 

[webdog]

Tell you what to do since you would not believe any explanation I gave. Read Romans 7, particularly verses 14-25, and John Gills commentary on them. Then if you don't know come back and I will give it a try.

I know what Romans 1 says...and I asked you, not John Gill.

Do you know what hyper calvinism is? By the way I am not a Calvinist as I have noted several times on this Forum. Calvin held many beliefs that I do not. I do believe in the Biblical Doctrines of Grace.

I know what it is, hence the reason I stated it...and you do fit many of the molds of one. The "biblical doctrines of grace" are also referred to as calvinism, btw.

 

[OldRegular]

Suggestion by OldRegular
Tell you what to do since you would not believe any explanation I gave. Read Romans 7, particularly verses 14-25, and John Gills commentary on them. Then if you don't know come back and I will give it a try.

Response by webdog
I know what Romans 1 says...and I asked you, not John Gill.

I said Romans 7, not Romans 1. You apparently want a correct answer. John Gill will give you that in most interpretations. As I noted you will not believe what I would say anyhow.

Response by OldRegular
Do you know what hyper calvinism is? By the way I am not a Calvinist as I have noted several times on this Forum. Calvin held many beliefs that I do not. I do believe in the Biblical Doctrines of Grace.

Response by webdog
I know what it is, hence the reason I stated it...and you do fit many of the molds of one.

Shows that though your will trumps that of Holy God you are not infallible as He is. I am not hyper calvinist. I am not even calvinist as I stated.

Response by webdog
The "biblical doctrines of grace" are also referred to as calvinism, btw.

Not by me. You can call them what you choose.

 

[Jarthur001]

Depends on the will of God (there is more than one).

It's God's will that I don't sin...yet I still sin. Reconcile that with man's will and God's will.

A poor understanding of God.

God has only one will. But part of it is revealed and the other is secret or hidden.

Sam Storms...

Though he hates sin in itself, yet he may will to permit it, for the greater promotion of holiness in this universality, including all things, and at all times. So, though he has no inclination to a creature’s misery, considered absolutely, yet he may will it, for the greater promotion of happiness in this universality. God inclines to excellency, which is harmony, but yet he may incline to suffer that which is unharmonious in itself, for the promotion of universal harmony, or for the promoting of the harmony that there is in the universality, and making it shine the brighter

If God permits sin, it is HIS will to do so. He can do this without causing sin at all. He can move people into his hidden will, by using their own sin nature.

 

[Jarthur001]

It was a typo on my part...but come to think of it, in your hyper-calvinist view of God's will, I guess it is God's will that I sin, since my will cannot trump God's.

What is hyper-calvinism?

 

[webdog]

A poor understanding of God.

God has only one will. But part of it is revealed and the other is secret or hidden.

Sam Storms...

Who is Sam Storms? If God has only one will, then we don't sin since He causes us to sin. This is hyper calvinism. God does in fact have a permissive will (allowing sin), a decreeing will (commanding man not to sin), and a declarative will (the definitive consequences for sin).

 

[Jarthur001]

Who is Sam Storms? If God has only one will, then we don't sin since He causes us to sin. This is hyper calvinism. God does in fact have a permissive will (allowing sin), a decreeing will (commanding man not to sin), and a declarative will (the definitive consequences for sin).

1st...

that is not hyper-Calvinism. :laugh::laugh:

The areas you posted are but one way to divid His will. But still he has but one will web.

This is why I feel it is better to see it as Gods revealed will and Gods secret or hidden will.

Sam Storms


Published Writings

* Chosen for Life: The Case for Divine Election (revised and expanded; forthcoming from Crossway Publishers, February 2007).
* Convergence: Spiritual Journeys of a Charismatic Calvinist (Enjoying God Ministries, 2005).
* One Thing: Developing a Passion for the Beauty of God (forthcoming, September 2004 from Christian Focus Publications)
* Pleasures Evermore: The Life-Changing Power of Enjoying God (NavPress, 2000).
* The Beginner's Guide to Spiritual Gifts (Regal Books, 2002).
* "Open Theism in the Hands of an Angry Puritan: Jonathan Edwards on Divine Foreknowledge," in The Legacy of Jonathan Edwards, edited by D. G. Hart, Sean Michael Lucas, Stephen Nichols (Baker Book House, 2003).
* "Is Imputation Unjust? Jonathan Edwards on the Problem of Original Sin" in Journal of Reformation & Revival, Volume 12, Number 3, Fall 2003.
* "Prayer and the Power of Contrary Choice," in Journal of Reformation & Revival, Volume 12, Number 2, Spring 2003, 53-67.
* "Fettered but Free: Jonathan Edwards on Freedom of the Will," in A God-Entranced Vision, edited by John Piper and Justin Taylor (Crossway Books, 2004).
* The Singing God: Discover the Joy of Being Enjoyed by God (Creation House, 1998).
* "A Third Wave View" in Are Miraculous Gifts for Today? Four Views; ed. by Wayne Grudem (Zondervan, 1996).
* To Love Mercy: Becoming a Person of Compassion, Acceptance, & Forgiveness (NavPress, 1991).
* Healing and Holiness: A Biblical Response to the Faith-Healing Phenomenon (Presbyterian & Reformed, 1990).
* Reaching God's Ear (Tyndale House, 1988).
* Chosen for Life: An Introductory Guide to the Doctrine of Divine Election (Baker Book House, 1987).
* Tragedy in Eden: Original Sin in the Theology of Jonathan Edwards (University Press of America, 1985).
* The Grandeur of God: A Theological and Devotional Study of the Divine Attributes (Baker Book House, 1984).
* "Prayer and Evangelism under God's Sovereignty," in The Grace of God, The Bondage of the Will: Biblical and Practical Perspectives on Calvinism, edited by Thomas R. Schreiner and Bruce A. Ware (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1995), pp. 215-31 (recently reprinted in Still Sovereign: Contemporary Perspectives on Election, Foreknowledge, and Grace [Baker, 2000]).
* "Defining the Elect: A Review Article," Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 27 (June 1984): 205-18.
* "Jonathan Edwards on the Freedom of the Will," Trinity Journal 3 (Fall 1982): 131-69.
* Review of The Great Debate: Calvinism, Arminianism and Salvation, by Alan P. F. Sell (Baker), in Trinity Journal 4 (Spring 1983).
* Review of The Worship of God, by Ralph P. Martin, in Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 26 (December 1983): 458-59.
* Review of Offense to Reason: A Theology of Sin, by Bernard Ramm, in Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 30 (December 1987): 495-97.
* "A Tribute to S. Lewis Johnson, Jr." in Continuity and Discontinuity: Perspectives on the Relationship Between the Old and New Testaments, ed. by John Feinberg (Crossway Books, 1988), pp. 321-23.
* Brief articles in Decision Magazine, Discipleship Journal.

 

[Jarthur001]

BTW...

Hyper-C is those that do not feel we need to share the gospel.

 

[webdog]

BTW...

Hyper-C is those that do not feel we need to share the gospel.

You provided one aspect of it as did I. That in itself (like mine) is not the whole of hyper-c.