Why Calvinists and Arminianists are both wrong

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

There is only one possible alternative to the fatalistic end of the Calvinistic notion that if God foreknows something it must of necessity come to pass. That alternative suggests that God indeed does possess a foreknowledge far above that which we possess. It suggests that although we can in some limited way comprehend that such a foreknowledge does indeed exist, we cannot fully grasp how it operates other than to accept the fact that it must, knowing full well that we will never be able to understand it fully because such an ability lies in the realm of the Infinite mind of God, far above our abilities to comprehend it’s depth.

Why must such a foreknowledge exist? Because we know without a shadow of a doubt there is such a thing as forming a moral intent and subsequent moral actions and being rightfully praised or blamed for such moral intents and actions. We know intuitively that man is cognizant of being the first cause of those moral intents and as such the rightful recipient of moral praise or blame. We know intuitively that if we are to be blamed or praised, we must have choice to do something other than what we do under the every same set of circumstances. If necessity rules, the mind knows intuitively that no man can be justly held responsible for that which fate dictates as the only possible outcome.

 

[webdog]

Are you saying that the doctrinal concepts of the Trinity are not found in Scripture?!

Why not try addressing what I actually say for a change. If you can't follow along, don't comment.

 

[webdog]

No, we are made sinners. Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

If you are equating "many" with all here...you are espousing universalism.

 

[Gup20]

The 15% who do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity are not Christians.

If you take a look at the link, it says that 85% of the Christians surveyed did not believe in Calvinism. The survey was on calvinism. I was trying to say that the trinity is not a controversial topic like calvinism is.

 

[Gup20]

If it is simply death that is passed down, then you have non-sinful people dying which means that the wages of sin is not death (i.e., death really comes from something else). That raises a serious problems.

You mean, like Jesus did?

 

[Gup20]

I stand by my post and withdraw nothing

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Those who frustrate and anger us do not cause us to offend, they reveal our inner character.

 

[historyb]

Hey, I am tried of people treating us who believe Scripture as second class citizens, It took a while for me I pray God brings you around to His Calvinism

 

[Gup20]

Read Deut 30. Have you been banished to another nation? of course not. that was Israel. Will God bring back to the land that Israel's fathers had (v. 5)? Of course not. Again, just read the passage in its context (with 28-29) and you will easily see that it applies only to Israel.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Hbr 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


If I am dead, I have indeed been banished to "another nation", and exiled from the kingdom of God.

 

[Rippon]

Why not try addressing what I actually say for a change. If you can't follow along, don't comment.

That's webdog for ya'. He is commander in chief of carping.

Here is a refresher for the folks. In post #181 I said: The word "trinity is not found in Holy Writ either -- but the concept is taught throughout the Bible nonetheless.

In post # 184 Gup responded to my statement regarding the word Trinity.

In post # 184 Webdog said : The concepts are not found in Scripture either.

Now WD, if you are unable to follow along, don't post until you are able to master the forum approach.

You have already admitted that you think man overrides God's will. That position is heretical. Your very own pastor should rebuke you for it if you are open enough to tell him your stance. I asked if you didn't believe in the Trinity just because the word doesn't occur in the Bible. I asked sincerely. I don't know how many departures from historical,biblical Christianity you maintain. It's hard to keep score. You threw the doctrine of original sin overboard a while back. There is a steady slide that you have been on.

 

[Rippon]

If you take a look at the link, it says that 85% of the Christians surveyed did not believe in Calvinism. The survey was on calvinism. I was trying to say that the trinity is not a controversial topic like calvinism is.

But since 15% of the group of professing Christians admitted that they did not believe in the Trinity -- they were not actually Christians.So these pagans do not believe in the Trinity or Calvinism. And you are okay with that? I would say that all non-Christians do not believe in Calvinistic doctrines -- non-Calvinistic Christians have a number of things in common with them. Roman Catholics, JW's and the LDS folks all affirm free-will and deny predestination.Do you now understand the links which non-Christians have with semi-Pelagians and Arminians?

 

[webdog]

That's webdog for ya'. He is commander in chief of carping.

Here is a refresher for the folks. In post #181 I said: The word "trinity is not found in Holy Writ either -- but the concept is taught throughout the Bible nonetheless.

In post # 184 Gup responded to my statement regarding the word Trinity.

In post # 184 Webdog said : The concepts are not found in Scripture either.

Now WD, if you are unable to follow along, don't post until you are able to master the forum approach.

You have already admitted that you think man overrides God's will. That position is heretical. Your very own pastor should rebuke you for it if you are open enough to tell him your stance. I asked if you didn't believe in the Trinity just because the word doesn't occur in the Bible. I asked sincerely. I don't know how many departures from historical,biblical Christianity you maintain. It's hard to keep score. You threw the doctrine of original sin overboard a while back. There is a steady slide that you have been on.

You used your example of Trinity to support TULIP is found in the Bible, a followup to another poster who claimed such tripe. I deny TULIP, I don't deny the Trinity. Anyone with the reading ability of a sixth grader who was following along would have known that.

Are you ever going to answer the question instead of just calling me names?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rippon: You have already admitted that you think man overrides God's will. That position is heretical.

HP: Simply not the case Rippon. Man does it every day. God’s will is that none should perish but man overrides God’s will and perishes in spite of God’s will due to their insistence on sinning.

By the way, did I miss your answer to post #156?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I think the time has come to research all the cults etc. that hold to OSAS or similar beliefs. I would consider such a similar belief to be any that separate man’s action on this earth from any eternal punishment in the life to come due to sin. Let the research begin. One might start with the heathen beliefs of the sytem espoused by Augustine prior to his entrance into the Church.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You mean, like Jesus did?

No, Jesus died for sin.

If I am dead, I have indeed been banished to "another nation", and exiled from the kingdom of God.

Deut 28-30 is about Palestine and the other nations on the earth. The rest of the OT tells this story. It is not about spiritual lands or nations.

Take that as your position if you like, but there are some consequences in doing so. If something of necessity comes to pass it is a matter of necessity and not the results of choice period.

Not at all. Something can be necessary and still be the result of choice. Jesus death and resurrection was necessary yet it was still his choice that led him to die. Judas' betrayal was necessary but it was still his choice to betray.

That leads one to the inevitable conclusion of necessitated deterministic fatalism.

Not at all.

God foreknows all so all must by necessity come to pass.

This is true.

God also foreknows all evil, so if I take your position I would also have to assume that God is the Author of all evil, a most wicked and absurd conclusion indeed.

No you wouldn't. God is not the author of evil. Remember I already said that knowledge is not direct causation. You are trying to use your own logic to paint God in a corner, but he won't have it. He has already revealed to us in his that your position is wrong.

 

[Gup20]

That's webdog for ya'. He is commander in chief of carping.

Here is a refresher for the folks. In post #181 I said: The word "trinity is not found in Holy Writ either -- but the concept is taught throughout the Bible nonetheless.

In post # 184 Gup responded to my statement regarding the word Trinity.

In post # 184 Webdog said : The concepts are not found in Scripture either.

I think we got our wires crossed here, and I think that the link I posted didn't take you directly to the survey I was talking about.

You had said, Rippon, that the word "trinity" did not appear in scripture, but that the body of Christ typically agrees with it's concepts.

I meant to say that - while most Christians do agree with the concept of the Trinity, most Christians do not agree with the concept of Calvinism.

Link to survey (this one should work)

This survey shows that 85% of the Christians surveyed (Baptist Pastors, I believe) do not believe in 5 point Calvinism. The survey had nothing to do with the Trinity.

My comments were to show that while the trinity is not in the Bible but is accepted, it also doesn't carry the overwhelming controversy that Calvinism does.

 

[Gup20]

No, Jesus died for sin.

Deut 28-30 is about Palestine and the other nations on the earth. The rest of the OT tells this story. It is not about spiritual lands or nations.

Did you get a chance to look at the private message I sent you?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Did you get a chance to look at the private message I sent you?

Yes, has a load of problems, not the least of which it suggest that Jews can be saved through their covenant apart from Christ which is completely unbiblical. That was why the Jews were condemned by Jesus. They were trusting in their covenant, not in Christ.

Secondly, the Bible never says that the content of Abraham's faith was Jesus Christ. The passage that "Abraham believed God" shows us that his faith was in the promises of God made ot him at that time, not in the person and work of Christ. Obviously, I could go point and point and show the error of your comments, but I don't have time to do it. Suffice it to say that there are insurmountable problems.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

I think we got our wires crossed here, and I think that the link I posted didn't take you directly to the survey I was talking about.

You had said, Rippon, that the word "trinity" did not appear in scripture, but that the body of Christ typically agrees with it's concepts.

I meant to say that - while most Christians do agree with the concept of the Trinity, most Christians do not agree with the concept of Calvinism.

Link to survey (this one should work)

This survey shows that 85% of the Christians surveyed (Baptist Pastors, I believe) do not believe in 5 point Calvinism. The survey had nothing to do with the Trinity.

My comments were to show that while the trinity is not in the Bible but is accepted, it also doesn't carry the overwhelming controversy that Calvinism does.

Not 15% of Christians, but rather 10% of SBC pastors.

I don't know why this is surprising though. I'm sure that there are those who may agree with several points, but perhaps not all. Please note that the SBC Faith & Message still has a very Calvinistic view of salvation. Quotes from SBCF&M are below.

"Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God."

"Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace."

"Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility."

"All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation."

You may want to review 1689 London Confession of Faith - one of the oldest statement of faiths by Baptists. It is very calvinistic in doctrine. Except for Baptism & the Lord's Supper, you might well be reading the Westminster Confession of Faith.

 

[Gup20]

Yes, has a load of problems, not the least of which it suggest that Jews can be saved through their covenant apart from Christ which is completely unbiblical. That was why the Jews were condemned by Jesus. They were trusting in their covenant, not in Christ.

Uhh... that is precisely what I said. What I wrote to you disproved dual covenant theology, and said that - from the beginning, and even in the law and the Old Testament, Salvation was always by faith. I said DCT (dual covenant theology) was wrong, and that the Jews DID NOT have their own covenant.

Secondly, the Bible never says that the content of Abraham's faith was Jesus Christ.

I think it does - the Apostle Paul seemed to think so too:

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Uhh... that is precisely what I said. What I wrote to you disproved dual covenant theology, and said that - from the beginning, and even in the law and the Old Testament, Salvation was always by faith. I said DCT (dual covenant theology) was wrong, and that the Jews DID NOT have their own covenant.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I don't know of hardly anyone who believes what you stated. That was a view espoused by some dispensationalists, but they were wrong.

I think it does - the Apostle Paul seemed to think so too:

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

But neither of those verses give us the content of saving faith, do they? It talks of promises made to Abraham, but not what Abraham believed in order to be saved. Do you see that difference?