how one non Baptist church handle the shower issue

[historyb]

I will answer your red herring questions, quite Apples and oranges

Should a church marry a homosexual couple?

Nope, it is an abomination to God. Having a baby is not

Should a church marry a "swinging couple"?

If they know, nope. Adultery is an abomination to God, having a baby is not.

Should a church allow an open and unrepentant homosexual to join as a member?

Only if it's a liberal church, Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Having a baby is not

Should a church allow a open and unrepentant drunk to join as a member?

Up to the Church, what does Scripture say

 

[matt wade]

I will answer your red herring questions, quite Apples and oranges

Nope, it is an abomination to God. Having a baby is not

If they know, nope. Adultery is an abomination to God, having a baby is not.

What is apples and oranges? What is all this talk about a baby? The part of the discussion I am replying to is the scenerio about a couple living together and whether the church should marry them. Your response to someone saying they should be married outside the church was:

I am glad I don't go to a church like yours where they hate even their own

and

Your point, you require all to be perfect before they can do anything in your "church", Christ does not.

So, it would seem you think that a church should marry an unrepentant couple that are living together.

I agree with you that homosexual couples should not be married in a church (or outside for that matter) and the same about "swinging" couples. But, their sin is the same as the sin of the couple that are living together. Don't you understand that?

 

[historyb]

What is apples and oranges? What is all this talk about a baby?

Your questions as relates to the OP

The part of the discussion I am replying to is the scenario about a couple living together and whether the church should marry them. Your response to someone saying they should be married outside the church was:


So, it would seem you think that a church should marry an unrepentant couple that are living together.

The couple are rectifying the situation and yes the Church should marry them

I agree with you that homosexual couples should not be married in a church (or outside for that matter) and the same about "swinging" couples. But, their sin is the same as the sin of the couple that are living together. Don't you understand that?

No it's not. Nor is this about that, your throwing up a red herring to try and divert attention from where it needs to be. This is not about couples, this is about a girl who made a mistake and the church treating her like scum.

If the girl is a member of the Church than they should let her know of the sin involved, but don't punish the baby. The church will have much to answer for with it's part that made that girl turn away and seek an abortion because they were so stuck up on what they thought was right.

This is no were near your questions and your assuming a lot.

 

[matt wade]

Your questions as relates to the OP

The couple are rectifying the situation and yes the Church should marry them

No it's not. Nor is this about that, your throwing up a red herring to try and divert attention from where it needs to be. This is not about couples, this is about a girl who made a mistake and the church treating her like scum.

You are all about sticking to the OP now. Why didn't you stick to the OP when you made a statement like, "I am glad I don't go to a church like yours where they hate even their own"?


If a couple is living together in sin and becomes repentant of that sin, they will move out to remove themselves from the sin. Repent means to turn away from. If you are living together and not married and become repentant, the only way to "rectify" that is to move out and then then plan a marriage. To say that they are rectifying the situation by continuing to live together is absurd.

If the girl is a member of the Church than they should let her know of the sin involved, but don't punish the baby. The church will have much to answer for with it's part that made that girl turn away and seek an abortion because they were so stuck up on what they thought was right.

This is no were near your questions and your assuming a lot.

How is it punishing the baby to not have a shower? Will the baby remember the shower? All the baby needs is the junk that comes from the shower. As long as the church still helps in that regard, what's the problem from the baby's standpoint? The shower is a celebration for the woman. A woman that has a baby out of wedlock, does not deserve a celebration. I know it may be hard for you to understand that sin should not be celebrated, but that's just the way it is.

For you to make the statement that a woman will have an abortion because she doesn't get a shower at her church is just plain stupid. Any woman who would do that is mentally uncapable of caring for a child and should give the child up for adoption.


As for

 

[historyb]

we will never agree

 

[annsni]

Your point, you require all to be perfect before they can do anything in your "church", Christ does not.

Did I ever say that someone had to be perfect before they can do anything in my church? Jeepers! Gotta understand comparisons dear.

The point I was trying to make, which apparently some didn't get, was that if we decide to not have a baby shower in the church for an unwed mother because of the message it will give to the other girls who might get into the same situation, why would we marry a couple and host their reception if they are living together before the benefit of marriage? Don't you see that as a double standard? Would it be better if the unwed mother quickly went out and made another huge mistake and married some loser just because she got pregnant by him?

Our church has had a few young ladies get pregnant before marriage. Most of the cases, the girl came to the congregation on a Sunday morning (of their own accord - not being told they must do this or it even being suggested to them) and spoke of their sin and apologized - then asked the congregation if they would uphold them in their choice to give this child life and pray for them. The congregation in each case stood by these girls and had showers for them, helped when the baby came, supported them and loved them. As a matter of fact, next weekend is the wedding of one of these young ladies. Her baby is now going on 5 years old and she found a wonderful Christian man who loved her and her son. What a tremendous blessing and a great example to the girls in the congregation - that God is a God of forgiveness and healing when we repent of our sins.

So no need to get all huffy about what I was saying. Our church is full of imperfect people who are doing their best to live for the Lord Jesus Christ yet sometimes fall. There is discipline where required and forgiveness where it is requested. THAT is a church to belong to.

 

[Gup20]

Ahh... Ok once again I fail to see how that has anything to do with a baby shower. Christ is simply telling us that He will save those who recognize that they are sinners not self righteous pharisees.

Since the Bible does not address baby showers (or indeed many specific situations) directly, we can infer the proper behavior in all situations by following similar examples of situations that are in the Bible. Really, what you are talking about here is cutting ties of fellowship with an individual. I think the Bible does setup very clear guidelines for how we are to treat one another:

1. Love others as you love yourself.

The Bible also talks in depth about the procedure for cutting someone off from fellowship. First go to them, if they won't listen bring a witness, if they won't listen bring the elders, if they won't listen cut off fellowship.

Apart from this proceedure, there is no precedence for "limited fellowship" ie - you fellowship with them, but don't throw a baby shower for them.

Its the church's responsibility to clearly declare the gospel. That involves telling people they are sinners.

Telling someone they are sinning, and establishing a punishment for that sin are quite different. If you throw baby showers for everyone except for the persons you deem "not moral enough", then you are judge, jurry, and executioner... as it were... in punishing that person for their sin.

Again why do you have to have a shower or party to show love. Are their not other ways to show love?

There are other ways... and you should be doing those ALSO. But taking away a loving act to punish for sin is not Agape love - unconditional love. If we follow God's model, we extend love while people are yet in sin.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Why would she think that. The policy that was stated sounded like they would help the unmarried mother, but they did not throw the party for her.

If they throw parties for everyone else, and have not formally cut off fellowship with her, then they should throw her a party also.

Secondly since when do we have to make sinners "feel welcome" in church whether it be through a shower or some other gimmick. Just give them the gospel and let the Holy Spirit draw them to Christ.

Oh that's right... I forgot.... we're only supposed to love others once they have agreed to our statement of faith and signed off on their submission to the church's by-laws.

 

[Gup20]

My question is this:

A couple lives together before they marry.

Do they marry in your church?

Say the couple realizes their sin and moves out.

Do they have their reception in your church?

"Your" church? I thought it was God's house? If they want to honor God by acknowledging his role in marriage, and get married in one of God's houses, why do you want to stop them?

 

[Gup20]

The point is that the church needs to hold people to a moral standard.

Why? Who made the church the 'morality police'?

If the church doesn't hold itself, and others to a moral standard, then the moral standard will be ignored by all.

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

Above is the Gentile Moral Standard for the Church.

Please answer these yes or no questions for me.

No.

Should a church marry a homosexual couple?

Since the Bible defines marriage as between a man and a woman, I would say no.

Should a church marry a "swinging couple"?

Are they swinging with anyone else in the church? Should the church marry a man who uses pornography? Should the church marry anyone who looks at another person with lust? Sexual sin is sexual sin, and there is no "degree" of ok. It isn't for the church to execute punishment on someone for their sin.

Should a church allow an open and unrepentant homosexual to join as a member?

They can be a member of God's family, so why not a church member? Again, here, one could argue that they wouldn't have the power to overcome their sin without being part of the Body of Christ.

Should a church allow a open and unrepentant drunk to join as a member?

Better that he spend his time in the pew than the bar, don't you think?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Here's how one church we were part of handled the baby shower issue:

Showers were given if the mom was married and a member of the church, or if her immediate family were members and she lived in the community but had no church home of her own.

If mom had a church home, they held it and we attended.

If mom was unmarried, the announcement was made that our church (if she was a member) had need of baby supplies for a mom to be. If she was a community member instead, the announcement was that the community was in need of those supplies.

EVERY baby got gifts of clothing, diapers, etc. whether or not mom was married.

Only married moms got the fun of the nice party with grandma's and aunties in attendance. In reality, the baby couldn't care less about the party. That is all about mom, or more likely, grandma having their day in the sun.

Our church decided to reserve those "days in the sun" for those who first married, then procreated. That need not entail being nasty, shunning, or any of the usual complaints about doing that.

It was just one of those consequences folks knew going in to the situation--some things were accepted, others were not. Some behavior is rewarded, other behavior isn't.

Now, that said, the ladies in the church would really reach out to the unwed moms to be with lots of love and support. Public celebration? No. Loving aid and outreach? Absolutely!!

But we do live in a society where any negative consequences for choosing immoral behavior are seen as judgemental and mean spirited. I cannot do a thing about that, but choose not to be controlled by it.

Why do you hate unwed mothers so much?

 

[billwald]

NT teaches that sexual intercourse effects the marriage, not words from a 3rd party.

In the OT, Isaac took Rebecca into a tent and "married" her.

 

[rbell]

NT teaches that sexual intercourse effects the marriage, not words from a 3rd party.

In the OT, Isaac took Rebecca into a tent and "married" her.

So do you also advocate polygamy, since there are OT examples of it?

Not trying to derail, but show we must take care in what examples we use...