Are there any churches that don't believe in original sin?

[Gup20]

Normally this would be the case but I'm asking the question because it came up on a secular board I'm on and I just didn't know ANY. I'm not familiar with a lot of the non-Christian churches and I'm not sure how much you guys would be either but I'll take any religious organization that claims itself to be a "church".

Can you be more specific as to what you mean by "Original Sin"? I think Agnus_Dei has given the best definition of what the two most plausible possibilities are:

The Orthodox Christian Church has a different view of Original Sin as does the West, which may be outlined as follows:

In the Orthodox Faith, the term "original sin" refers to the "first" sin of Adam and Eve. As a result of this sin, humanity bears the "consequences" of sin, the chief of which is death. Here the word "original" may be seen as synonymous with "first." Hence, the "original sin" refers to the "first sin" in much the same way as "original chair" refers to the "first chair."

In the West, humanity likewise bears the "consequences" of the "original sin" of Adam and Eve. However, the West also understands that humanity is likewise "guilty" of the sin of Adam and Eve. The term "Original Sin" here refers to the condition into which humanity is born, a condition in which guilt as well as consequence is involved.

In the Orthodox Christian understanding, while humanity does bear the consequences of the original, or first, sin, humanity does not bear the personal guilt associated with this sin. Adam and Eve are guilty of their willful action; we bear the consequences, chief of which is death.

One might look at all of this in a completely different light. Imagine, if you will, that one of your close relatives was a mass murderer. He committed many serious crimes for which he was found guilty, and perhaps even admitted his guilt publicly. You, as his or her son or brother or cousin, may very well bear the consequences of his action - people may shy away from you or say, "Watch out for him - he comes from a family of mass murderers." Your name may be tainted, or you may face some other forms of discrimination as a consequence of your relative’s sin. You, however, are not personally guilty of his or her sin.

 

[annsni]

"original sin" as the world would understand it. That God made each person perfect instead of there being an effect of sin on their lives.

Unfortunately it seems that's what they're thinking.

 

[Gup20]

"original sin" as the world would understand it. That God made each person perfect instead of there being an effect of sin on their lives.

Unfortunately it seems that's what they're thinking.

I don't know of any churches that teach that. I must be misunderstanding you. Can you say it again... this time, pretend I am really, really dumb and you have to spell it out for me

 

[steaver]

Gup20;

An example would be a baby who is hungry and cries for his mother's milk. The baby can feel the effects of death - hunger - and cries to have it's own needs met.

Then you believe Adam and Eve before the fall simply ate food for pleasure and never felt hungry?

I do not see a baby thinking to itself "I am going to die if I don't eat".

Now if one never felt hungry, what would make you want to eat? We must eat to physically survive, even after our ressurrection. Hunger is not the curse. The scripture states death is. Death by sin.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Gup20;

Just as Agnus_Dei has said... the consequences of Adam's sin are shared by all (the Curse, for example), whereas the guilt of that sin is Adam's alone. Each of us are guilty of our own sin when we, through fear of death, tend to sin. Are we born with that tendency to sin? Absolutely. Why? Because we inherit sin? No, but because we inherit death, and we fear death, therefore we tend to sin.

Well, we inherit the curse of death. There is no death apart from sin. Death cannot exist without sin. Sin brings death. Death does not bring sin.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: "original sin" as the world would understand it. That God made each person perfect instead of there being an effect of sin on their lives.

HP: Who hath bewitched you Ann to believe such nonsense? There are and have been many within the Church that have not or do not believe in original sin. I have NEVER heard of one person that did not believe in original sin that would say that each person is perfect and sin has had no effect on their lives. That may be the position of some off the wall individual, group or cult. Who cares. That is not the position of any I have ever heard of within the Church that does not accept the Augustinian notion of OS. It certainly would not be my position and I do not believe that original sin is Biblical in the least.

 

[annsni]

HP: Who hath bewitched you Ann to believe such nonsense? There are and have been many within the Church that have not or do not believe in original sin. I have NEVER heard of one person that did not believe in original sin that would say that each person is perfect and sin has had no effect on their lives. That may be the position of some off the wall individual, group or cult. Who cares. That is not the position of any I have ever heard of within the Church that does not accept the Augustinian notion of OS. It certainly would not be my position and I do not believe that original sin is Biblical in the least.

Well, the discussion is that this lady went to a protestant church but decided that she felt that the idea that there is sin in us from birth is wrong. She feels that we come into this world perfect and it's just that when we get older and are influenced by others that we begin to sin. But of course they don't feel that sin is all that bad and that God should take us into heaven because, after all, they never murdered anyone! They're basically good and they can't believe that we have any kind of stain of sin.

It's sad. So she's looking for a church that does not believe in original sin and I just couldn't think of any other than maybe some cult. Figured you smarty pants people here might know of one. LOL

 

[billwald]

What kind of a god would send a newborn or younger to Hell because someone sinned 10,000 years ago? A god who should be respected?

 

[annsni]

What kind of a god would send a newborn or younger to Hell because someone sinned 10,000 years ago? A god who should be respected?

The Bible is not clear on what happens when newborns or younger children die. Yes, we have David who said that he would be going to his son so I think we can infer that he believed that his son went to heaven.

However, what we DO know is God's character. He is merciful and just and we can trust that if a child is sent to hell, He has a good reason for it.

I personally believe that young children go to heaven but I have no Biblical basis for it. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. If I'm right, I'm right. Doesn't make one iota of difference to the way I walk my walk or how I view God. I taught my children from day one of the love of Jesus for them and all of them made decisions on their own to give their lives to Christ at very young ages. So far I see my two older children continuing to walk with the Lord strongly and I have faith that their commitment was real. My younger ones are still young enough to not have a lot of life experience but they both love God's Word and love to pray and praise Him. That tells me something is there.

But again, I know God's character. What He does with infants and children is right no matter what He does.

 

[Gup20]

Well, we inherit the curse of death. There is no death apart from sin. Death cannot exist without sin. Sin brings death. Death does not bring sin.

True, but consider that if we inherit the guilt of Adam's sin, then Jesus could not have been sinless. He would have been guilty of Adam's sin. However, he could inherit the consequence of Adam's sin, which is why Romans 5:12 says "death is passed" and not "sin is passed".

Everyone from Adam to Moses (when the law was given) died as well, even though they didn't take part in Adam's sin, and the way back to the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil was blocked.

[FONT=&quot]Rom 5:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.[/FONT]
​

 

[Agnus_Dei]

True, but consider that if we inherit the guilt of Adam's sin, then Jesus could not have been sinless. He would have been guilty of Adam's sin. However, he could inherit the consequence of Adam's sin, which is why Romans 5:12 says "death is passed" and not "sin is passed".

The RCC got themselves in a jam by developing this "Original Sin" to the point of Dogma...what happens to Jesus? Well the RCC has to fix Mary so that she doesn't pass on this stain of sin, this guilt...The Immaculate Conception is developed and made Dogma and wham, problem solved. Mary was just born without Original Sin.

In the Orthodox Church Christ is born fully 100% human and fully 100% Divine. He has all the traits we humans have and death was passed on to Him, that's just our human nature, which He took on. But in regard to sinning and staying sinless, Jesus had an attribute we don't have and that's His Divinity.

Jesus' humanity submitted totally to His Divinity, thus unlike us, who are responsible for our own sin, He remained sinless.

In XC
-

 

[steaver]

Gup20:

True, but consider that if we inherit the guilt of Adam's sin, then Jesus could not have been sinless. He would have been guilty of Adam's sin. However, he could inherit the consequence of Adam's sin, which is why Romans 5:12 says "death is passed" and not "sin is passed".

Everyone from Adam to Moses (when the law was given) died as well, even though they didn't take part in Adam's sin, and the way back to the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil was blocked.

[FONT=&quot]Rom 5:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.[/FONT]
​

The scripture has Eve sinning first, yet God holds Adam responsible for sin entering into the world and death by sin. The curse, by God's sovern choice (it is His plan), was passed on through Adam's genes and not through both Adam and Eve together. Therefore Jesus would of had no curse and no sin nature because He was born of a virgin, He had no human father by which the curse of death by sin could be passed. It matters not that Mary was a sinner and contained the curse of death in herself. Jesus was still sinless and uncursed because God chose to have sin pass through the male gene into each newborn. You might say well that is scientifically impossible, but we are not dealing with science here. Can you show how sin entered into the world by science? It is what God says it is.

Romans 5:12 says "death is passed" and not "sin is passed".

Romans 5:12 states "death by sin". They go hand in hand.

Did you ever notice that Jesus did not die until God laid on Him the sin of the world and then apparently looked away or seperated Himself from Jesus? How could He die without sin? Without sin their is no death.

:jesus:

 

[Gup20]

The RCC got themselves in a jam by developing this "Original Sin" to the point of Dogma...what happens to Jesus? Well the RCC has to fix Mary so that she doesn't pass on this stain of sin, this guilt...The Immaculate Conception is developed and made Dogma and wham, problem solved. Mary was just born without Original Sin.

In the Orthodox Church Christ is born fully 100% human and fully 100% Divine. He has all the traits we humans have and death was passed on to Him, that's just our human nature, which He took on. But in regard to sinning and staying sinless, Jesus had an attribute we don't have and that's His Divinity.

Jesus' humanity submitted totally to His Divinity, thus unlike us, who are responsible for our own sin, He remained sinless.

In XC
-

I really like your insights here, and you communicate them very well.

The scripture has Eve sinning first, yet God holds Adam responsible for sin entering into the world and death by sin.

I don't think you are fully grasping the nature of the marriage relationship. The man is the head of the wife, which means he has authority over her.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Also, the Bible says Eve was deceived, but Adam willfully sinned.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

 

[steaver]

I don't think you are fully grasping the nature of the marriage relationship. The man is the head of the wife, which means he has authority over her.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Also, the Bible says Eve was deceived, but Adam willfully sinned.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

This topic nor my comments have anything to do with authority within marriage.

1Timothy's teaching about deception has nothing to do with this topic nor my comments here.

So I believe my comments still stand without refute.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Eve sinned first. Why did God declare Adam's sin the cause of the curse?

Rom 5:19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Also we see that many were "made sinners". This would be born a sinner and not born spiritually alive but then spiritual death coming later after one "chooses" to sin at some made up doctrine of an "age of accountability", as some erroniously have preached here on the BB.

:jesus:

 

[Gup20]

Eve sinned first. Why did God declare Adam's sin the cause of the curse?

Because Eve didn't have the authority to give away dominion of the earth, Adam did.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Adam and Eve were "one flesh", but Adam was the head, and had authority.

A person can only give away the amount of authority they have been given.

See what Hebrews 2:14 says:

Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


Adam gave that 'dominion' over death to Satan by sinning. Eve didn't have the authority to do this.

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

The scripture in 1 Timothy 2 shows that the issue of the first sin is DIRECTLY related to authority.

 

[steaver]

Because Eve didn't have the authority to give away dominion of the earth, Adam did.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Adam and Eve were "one flesh", but Adam was the head, and had authority.

A person can only give away the amount of authority they have been given.

See what Hebrews 2:14 says:

Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


Adam gave that 'dominion' over death to Satan by sinning. Eve didn't have the authority to do this.

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

The scripture in 1 Timothy 2 shows that the issue of the first sin is DIRECTLY related to authority.

Interesting theory. So in your belief if Adam had never sinned, Eve could have sinned all she wanted and never die.