MacArthur on the Purpose Driven Life

[zrs6v4]

I agree that the Gospel was incomplete in this book and in many cases I have found the true Gospel today has been changed through many years of passing down tradition and needs a clear explanation to reach the true Biblical Gospel of the first century. Also, Jesus as Lord and Savior is the only way just as workless faith and repentance are necessary in the beginning of salvation. I say workless because when the Lord's Spirit is at work faith and repentance look just like Revelation 22:17 explains- Coming freely/willingly/with a new desire.

 

[webdog]

I agree that the Gospel was incomplete in this book and in many cases I have found the true Gospel today has been changed through many years of passing down tradition and needs a clear explanation to reach the true Biblical Gospel of the first century. Also, Jesus as Lord and Savior is the only way just as workless faith and repentance are necessary in the beginning of salvation. I say workless because when the Lord's Spirit is at work faith and repentance look just like Revelation 22:17 explains- Coming freely/willingly/with a new desire.

Can you define what was incomplete about the Gospel in the book?
Let me ask you this. Does the Gospel message consist of an unregenerated person making an upfront commitment to stop sinning in exchange for salvation?

 

[zrs6v4]

Can you define what was incomplete about the Gospel in the book?

Macarthur covered it pretty well I thought. sin judgement, condemnation, wrath, propitiation, etc... Warren seems to try to place the sinner in front of God as if he/she is already a believer and not in eternal trouble. He also makes to many assumptions just as Macarthur noted.

Let me ask you this. Does the Gospel message consist of an unregenerated person making an upfront commitment to stop sinning in exchange for salvation?

I am not sure I understand your question rightly, but no I dont think we must do any works in order to gain God's favor hence-grace. Repentance is not just stopping our sin problem, rather a desire to not only turn from sin, but also to rest on Jesus for mercy. As I said, when God's Spirit is at work the sinner will take rest in Christ when under conviction. The way you stated your question may make a self-righteous false convert IMO. As I tried to explain in my post above, true faith and repentance are necessary for salvation, but they are to be done in the right heart or either one may become a work. Again the difference is the Holy Spirit working through the faithful preaching of God's word. When the word is not faithfully preached then the Spirit does not work through it. I am confident His message does not sound biblical, but rather very soft and comforting

 

[webdog]

zrs...would this be a statement you would agree with?

"However, to receive God's forgiveness, eternal salvation and blessings, you are required to believe the gospel and confess your sins in sorrow and regret. Do not just confess them generally. Be specific in confessing what you have done to offend His holiness.
Show Him that you are sincerely sorry for your sins by MAKING A COMMITMENT NEVER TO PRACTICE THOSE SINS AGAIN! This is real repentance."

 

[zrs6v4]

zrs...would this be a statement you would agree with?

"However, to receive God's forgiveness, eternal salvation and blessings, you are required to believe the gospel and confess your sins in sorrow and regret. Do not just confess them generally. Be specific in confessing what you have done to offend His holiness.
Show Him that you are sincerely sorry for your sins by MAKING A COMMITMENT NEVER TO PRACTICE THOSE SINS AGAIN! This is real repentance."

I dont think so, the wording is strange. Confession/repentance is a result that comes from the gospel that should cut hearts when God is working within. It isnt like we have to persuade God or play sincere. Our honest cry to God after being convicted through the Gospel will be a broken spirit. I dont have a problem preaching the gospel calling people to repentance, but I wouldnt tell them to be sincere or try to pretend to be broken when it should be nothing less than a natural reaction.

 

[gb93433]

Macarthur covered it pretty well I thought. sin judgement, condemnation, wrath, propitiation, etc...

What does a four year old need to know about those things to receive Christ and follow Him?

 

[OldRegular]

What does a four year old need to know about those things to receive Christ and follow Him?

What makes a 4 year old accountable before God any more than a 1 year old?

 

[gb93433]

What makes a 4 year old accountable before God any more than a 1 year old?

There are Christians today who received Christ at the age of four and are living for Christ and making disciples. My daughter received Christ at the age of five. She is sharing Christ with those she meets and is no wall flower.

A few years ago I baptized a four year old and nobody was talking him out of it. He was adamant about following Christ. I saw more boldness in that youngster than I see in most adults. There was no doubt in my mind about his decision.

 

[sag38]

I accepted Christ as a six year old. However, it was at a later age that I better understood judgement, repentance, Lordship, etc. Christ met me where I was and has been growing me up ever since.

 

[webdog]

I dont think so, the wording is strange. Confession/repentance is a result that comes from the gospel that should cut hearts when God is working within. It isnt like we have to persuade God or play sincere. Our honest cry to God after being convicted through the Gospel will be a broken spirit. I dont have a problem preaching the gospel calling people to repentance, but I wouldnt tell them to be sincere or try to pretend to be broken when it should be nothing less than a natural reaction.

Thanks for clarifying. If you don't agree with that statement, that is a statement from a Lordship Salvationist, what MacArthur is. As you can see, it is pretty pompous of him to condemn Warren's Gospel presentation when his is way more severely flawed.

 

[gb93433]

Thanks for clarifying. If you don't agree with that statement, that is a statement from a Lordship Salvationist, what MacArthur is. As you can see, it is pretty pompous of him to condemn Warren's Gospel presentation when his is way more severely flawed.

Would you say that MacArthur forgot God's word where Paul wrote, "Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice."?

 

[webdog]

Would you say that MacArthur forgot God's word where Paul wrote, "Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice."?

Based on this works based statement from his book Hard to Believe, I'm afraid he probably disagrees with just about everyone who believes we are saved by grace alone through faith alone...

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny"

 

[Alive in Christ]

""Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny"

Did that quote come from John McArthur?

If so...all I can say is wow. Very saddening.

I'm shocked at encountering such an erronious understanding of the gospel. Even though I have known that McArthur is very legalistic at times...THIS goes beyond what I have know of McArthur up till now. This statement is every bit as heretical as the Catholics and Orthodoxs false views of salvation.

Very sad. :tear:

 

[gb93433]

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny"

It is strange that MacArthur would write such a thing especially considering the fact that the majority of his congregation comes from a RCC background.

I wonder how MacArthur would interpret 1 Cor 3:15, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

 

[gb93433]

MacArthur's answer to the following question from http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/70-13-2.htm


Question (continued)
Well, the problem I had with it was that, if an unborn child is saved until he becomes unsaved by a sinful attitude or action, then what does that do to the doctrine of eternal security? And also, the other problem I had is that...

Answer (continued)
Let’s take the first problem. The unborn child is not saved. He’s not saved until he...what was that you said? If he’s not saved until...?


Question (continued)
"In your quote, you said that “God, not having any just basis, either internally or externally, by virtue of the attitude or the action of an unborn child, would have no basis on which to sentence them to Hell, except for the depravity they inherited in Adam.”

Answer (continued)
Right, but that doesn’t mean they’re saved. An unborn infant--a child, a baby--before the age of accountability is not saved. Otherwise, they would lose their salvation when they reached the age of accountability. That’s your question, right? Then you don’t have eternal security, because if all infants and all babies are saved before the age of accountability, when they get to the age of accountability, they lose their salvation and they have to get saved over again.


No, they’re not saved. God redeems them when they die. There’s a difference. They’re not saved. They’re in a situation where they are sort of in the middle ground: they’re not saved, or in the technical sense, they’re lost, of course, but not in the sense of having rejected God in unbelief or unbelief of Christ--they are not saved, which can only occur through faith in Christ. So, there they are: they’re not saved and they’re not--how can I say it? I don’t want to say they’re not unsaved…but they’re not confirmed in unbelief. They’re neither. If they live, they maintain the same situation of being unsaved. If they die, I believe God saves them.


So, the salvation doesn’t come into play unless they die and at that point.

 

[zrs6v4]

Thanks for clarifying. If you don't agree with that statement, that is a statement from a Lordship Salvationist, what MacArthur is. As you can see, it is pretty pompous of him to condemn Warren's Gospel presentation when his is way more severely flawed.

I am not aware of what a Lordship Salvationist believes and I do respect Macarthur (although I have some disagreements). I had a feeling you were quoting him :laugh:. anyway as of right now here is my opinion just for the record. Yes one must make Jesus Lord aka repent at salvation. This is clear in Matt 13:44, but it is not a work to earn forgiveness, but rather a result of true faith. So yes we must repent to the Lordship of Jesus out of a new desire, and if they dont then their faith isnt genuine. This is another clear example of why the Spirit must be at work within otherwise we would not be willing to come freely to Christ, but rather trying to do a work to be saved.

 

[historyb]

Here is a definition of Lordship Salvation -

a teaching in Christian theology that maintains good works are a necessary consequence of being declared righteous before God.[1] In other words, Jesus cannot be considered a person's savior (that is, bringer of salvation) without simultaneously being lord of the person's life, which is demonstrated by the gradual purification from sin and the exercising of good works (for instance, caring for widows and orphans, James 1:27). This teaching is advocated in many of the creeds of Protestantism, but is not universally accepted. Advocates and opponents of the doctrine within Protestantism all agree that acceptance before God is through faith alone by grace alone, but they differ on whether true justification can ever be followed by leading a worldly life or even apostasy.


The opposing position is called Free Grace theology which maintains that the Lordship salvation view is marked by legalism and a lack of graciousness. In particular, Free Grace theology claims that the Lordship position is "fixated" on the works-minded Gospel of Matthew while overlooking the Grace-minded Gospel of John. An in-between position also exists which asserts that the Lordship salvation view is legalist and Free Grace theology is antinomian.

Source

and here is what Dr. MacArthur says about it:

Question
I know that you take a Biblical view of salvation by faith alone.

John Macarthur: Yes, by grace through faith--not by faith alone. By grace through faith.


Question (continued)

Ok, but I’m a little confused as far as the implications of that Lordship to the non-Christian at the point of salvation. How much of it can they really comprehend in terms of the Lordship issue? And then along with that, are you saying through your series on the Lordship that the call to salvation is synonymous with the call to discipleship?

Answer

I am saying that explicitly, that a call to salvation is indeed a call to discipleship. I am saying that it is obvious that a person coming to faith in Jesus Christ will not fully understand the implications of his Lordship. They will not fully understand the reality of their sin, but there must be a call to that. In other words, when you call a sinner to repentance and you call a sinner to submit to Christ, they don’t fully understand the implications of that. But, they will understand as much as they can understand.

Now, let me say something that is very, very important for you to understand. I do not believe that an incomplete presentation of the gospel--in other words, if you just present the gospel that Jesus died for your sin and rose again and graciously offers you forgiveness by faith in his name; if that’s all you presented, and you didn’t talk about Lordship, and you didn’t talk about being a disciple, and you didn’t talk about repentance, and you didn’t talk about turning from sin-even an incomplete presentation of the gospel-now listen-could not prevent someone from being saved whom God was saving. Got that? Because if you didn’t talk about sin, they’d be feeling the conviction. And if you didn’t talk about submission, they’d be coming to that submission.

What I am saying is that when we present a shallow gospel, we don’t prevent the elect from getting saved; we make people think they’re saved who aren’t. That’s the issue. Do you see the distinction? That’s the issue. And so what we have-just imagine this now!-what we have then are a lot of people who think they’re Christians. And we have a lot of churches that are run by congregational rule, which means that a lot of churches are being run by what? Non-Christians! That’s a frightening reality. I’m quite sure there are Christian organizations being operated by non-Christians.

So, I don’t want to say that… You know, somebody said to me, “Well, I didn’t know all about Lordship when I was saved. Am I not saved?” No. The issue is, “Do you understand that Jesus is Lord and is it your heart’s desire to love Him and serve Him?” And if the answer is yes, then you understand it. So, that’s the point you have to understand.
Now, Jesus called men to follow Him in discipleship. He called them to obey Him. We’ve shown all of that and we’ll even go into more detail when the book comes out.

I believe that when you present the gospel-now listen carefully to this-you can make it as difficult as possible! That’s what Jesus did. He made it as difficult as possible. Why? Because salvation is a work of God, not based on the cleverness of the one giving the gospel, but based on the power of God. So, if a person is being saved by God, then you want them to fully understand their salvation. And if God isn’t doing it, you want to make sure that they’re not coming in on some illusion.

Source

 

[historyb]

Question: "What is Lordship salvation?"

Answer: Lordship Salvation emphasizes that submitting to Christ as Lord over your life goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ to be saved. It also focuses on a changed life as the result of salvation. Those who believe in Lordship Salvation would have serious doubts about a person who claims to believe in Christ but does not have good works evident in his life. The Bible does teach that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22-23; James 2:14-26).

However, depending on the person and his circumstances, spiritual growth sometimes occurs quickly, and other times it takes a long time for changes to become evident, and even then the changes may not be evident to everyone. The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is by faith alone, apart from works (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). The Bible also declares that a life changes after salvation (Ephesians 2:10). So it is a difficult balance to make. We do know, however, that we are not to judge another as to the state of his/her eternal soul (Matthew 7:1). Only God knows who are His sheep and He will mature each of us according to His perfect time table.

So, is Lordship Salvation Biblical? Again, it cannot be denied that faith in Christ produces a change (2 Corinthians 5:17). A person who has been delivered from sin by faith in Christ should not desire to remain in a life of sin (Romans 6:2). At the same time, submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is an issue of spiritual growth, not salvation. The Christian life is a process of submitting to God in increasing measure (2 Peter 1:5-8). A person does not have to submit to God in every area of his or her life in order to be saved. A person simply has to recognize that he or she is a sinner, in need of Jesus Christ for salvation, and place trust in Him (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10). Christians absolutely should submit to Him (James 4:7). A changed life and submission to Christ's lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.

Source

 

[gb93433]

I have not ever known one person who was discipled as Jesus did His disciples who ever left the faith. However I have seen many who were never discipled who act as though they never knew Christ. One of those I met in 1975 and followed up is a missionary today. He received Christ two years earlier and when I met him I had doubts about his decision. There is no doubt today. Follow up perfected his earlier decision. He was taught to follow Christ and make disciples. However when he received Christ he was left alone to die as a baby would do if not fed and cared for.

 

[Alive in Christ]

McArthur again (bolding mine)...

John Macarthur: Yes, by grace through faith--not by faith alone. By grace through faith."

My goodness. John McArthur is denying the gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean, I just dont know any other way of putting it.

My last post had 1 crying dude. This one get 3...

:tear::tear::tear: