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A question about Calvinism

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Me4Him

New Member
Yes, I see arminiamism as a works theology, based on what man has done to satisfy God! If the doctrines of grace are not true, I greatly fear that all mankind is lost.

Let's try to break the plan of salvation down into "Steps".

1. God loved the whole world, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved, because God wasn't willing for '"ANY" to perish.

Jesus death took away the "Law" that required everyone to die for the sin they committed,

but it did not take away anyone's sin, as is obvious that his death only made it possible that they "MIGHT BE" saved, not would be saved.

There's something "missing" that God/Jesus did not provide to complete the plan of salvation.

2. A "Personal Faith/Belief" in Jesus is the "missing" component that will "COMBINE" with the work of Jesus to produce,


3. the "GRACE OF GOD". (saved)

Jesus's death was sufficient to save the "whole world", in accordance with God's will none perish,

but many do perish, proving "God's Sovereign will" is not involved/enforced.

I'll have to cut this post short, I'm experiencing a storm./lightning.

Later.
 

historyb

New Member
Let's try to break the plan of salvation down into "Steps".

1. God loved the whole world, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved, because God wasn't willing for '"ANY" to perish.

Your going to have to show where Christ died for the whole world.

26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

john 10:26-28

9 And they sang a new song with these words:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and break its seals and open it.
For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.



Rev 5:9


Now notice what the verse doesn't say, it does not say every men but men from every tribe.

Jesus death took away the "Law" that required everyone to die for the sin they committed,

That is not accurate, Christ perfectly fulfilled the law but not one jot or tittle of the law will pass away until Heaven and Earth pass away.

18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

Mat 5:18

but it did not take away anyone's sin, as is obvious that his death only made it possible that they "MIGHT BE" saved, not would be saved.

Chrisdt death made it possible so that the elect may be saved, those who God chooses. Man will never choose God, he must be called by God.

There's something "missing" that God/Jesus did not provide to complete the plan of salvation.

2. A "Personal Faith/Belief" in Jesus is the "missing" component that will "COMBINE" with the work of Jesus to produce,

Nothing is missing, God is sovereign He misses nothing.


3. the "GRACE OF GOD". (saved)

Jesus's death was sufficient to save the "whole world", in accordance with God's will none perish,

but many do perish, proving "God's Sovereign will" is not involved/enforced.

I'll have to cut this post short, I'm experiencing a storm./lightning.

Later.

Many parish because they are not called to God.God's Sovereign will is always involved, God left nothing to chance.
 

Me4Him

New Member
Your going to have to show where Christ died for the whole world.

26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

john 10:26-28

Many parish because they are not called to God.God's Sovereign will is always involved, God left nothing to chance.

When God chose Israel, he chose the whole nation, he didn't leave anyone out, but along the way some people rebelled/disobeyed and were REMOVED from among the Chosen.

Nothing changed, God loved the whole world, Jesus died, not just for the sins of those saved but also for the sins of all those who do perish that they might be saved, if they don't rebell/disobey God.

Those who perished from the nation of Israel did so by their WILL to rebell/disobey,

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

People perish today because of theirWill not to be one of the chosen, they refuse to come to God, it's not that God as rejected them.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.






Chrisdt death made it possible so that the elect may be saved, those who God chooses. Man will never choose God, he must be called by God.

Many are called, why do you think the gospel must be preached to the whole world as a WITNESS before the end comes,

And what will be the testimony of this Witness in God's Court, (Judgment day)

They heard the gospel and either accepted/rejected it.






That is not accurate, Christ perfectly fulfilled the law but not one jot or tittle of the law will pass away until Heaven and Earth pass away.

18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

Mat 5:18

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

If the JUDGE is not willing to JUDGE/CONDEMN, where is the enforcement of the LAW???

Under Moses law (OT) the woman caught in adultery should have been stoned to death, she wasn't,

why didn't Jesus obey the law given in the OT??

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, (by Jesus)

By dying for the sins of the whole world, Jesus put the whole world UNDER a period of GRACE.....from the law... that the whole world MIGHT BE saved.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Ro 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Regardless of how much sin exist, Jesus's death/God Grace can/will cover it, IF people have Faith.

If we were still under the law we'd be obligated to stone all adulterer to death.

Law is no respecter of person's, it's applied equally across the board to all people,

and it's the most serious flaw in all predestination doctrine, God is no respecter of person's either.

Ac 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

In court, a Judge can not decide who he want to be guilty or innocent, he can only issue judgment/verdicts according to law,

Does the defendant; still owe the wages of sin, or has the defendant allowed Jesus to pay them for him.

When you understand the law, predestination doctrine actually accuses God of sitting up what we call a Kangaroo Court,

The Judge ignores the law and frees those he likes and condemn those he doesn't like,

giving apardon; to some, withhold it from others,

showing a respect of persons, both of himself and the law.

People who reject God, God rejects, people who accept God, God accepts, that's the definition of "Belief/unbelief".

With the Rapture;, this period of grace ends, Israel goes back under the law (and prophets/two witnesses) during the trib, but that's not Germaine to this discussion.


I find few people on either side of the C/A debates that really understand LAW, especially within the context of scripture.
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
People who reject God, God rejects, people who accept God, God accepts, that's the definition of "Belief/unbelief".

You almost got something correct for a change [by accident I am sure]. If we just reword your above quote somewhat I believe you will have it.

People who reject God, God has passed over, people who accept God, God has elected, regenerated, and given the faith to believe, that's the definition in part of The Doctrines of Grace, what some call Calvinism.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Your going to have to show where Christ died for the whole world.
I hope you are kidding :eek: There are too many passages to even begin listing...tell you what, you claim He didn't...the burden of proof falls on you.

Let me see if I get this right...the Doctrines of "Grace" claim that man is held accountable for rejecting a God that didn't come to save him. That's "grace"?!? Is it grace to punish my 3 year old for not cleaning the gutters he cannot get to because I won't allow him?
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Let's try to break the plan of salvation down into "Steps".

1. God loved the whole world, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved, because God wasn't willing for '"ANY" to perish.

Jesus death took away the "Law" that required everyone to die for the sin they committed,

but it did not take away anyone's sin, as is obvious that his death only made it possible that they "MIGHT BE" saved, not would be saved.

There's something "missing" that God/Jesus did not provide to complete the plan of salvation.

So, let's say a child is born and does not ever commit sin in his lifetime. He dies at 60 years old. Does he go to heaven because he never committed sin?
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
So, let's say a child is born and does not ever commit sin in his lifetime. He dies at 60 years old. Does he go to heaven because he never committed sin?
I think Romans 3:23 is clear that anyone who can sin, will, and has. If the person was born in a vegetative state and dies at 60 he will most definitely be in Heaven.
 

Shortandy

New Member
So, let's say a child is born and does not ever commit sin in his lifetime. He dies at 60 years old. Does he go to heaven because he never committed sin?


David said he was concieved in sin...your kids and mine are no exception. This question is irrelavant because its not possible.
 

Shortandy

New Member
Me4Him said, "When God chose Israel, he chose the whole nation, he didn't leave anyone out, but along the way some people rebelled/disobeyed and were REMOVED from among the Chosen."


But God didn't choose the Babylonians did He or other people groups? How does this truth fit into the anti-reformed view? I don't ask this arrogantly but it is a question I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer to.

God chose one nation from many....what happend to the many?
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
But God didn't choose the Babylonians did He or other people groups? How does this truth fit into the anti-reformed view? I don't ask this arrogantly but it is a question I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer to.
Were those nations not allowed to worship the one true God as proselytes?
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think Romans 3:23 is clear that anyone who can sin, will, and has. If the person was born in a vegetative state and dies at 60 he will most definitely be in Heaven.

No - Im asking, IF a man could live his life sinless, would he go to heaven? Me4Him said "Jesus death took away the "Law" that required everyone to die for the sin they committed, " so I'm asking then is it possible, that if someone never once sinned in his life (hypothetically - go with me on this guys), he'd be able to go to heaven?
 

Shortandy

New Member
Being conceived in sin, and being a sinner are apples to oranges.


So back up and read the whole verse (Psalm 51:5) Then get your strongs out and tell me what you think he means there.

The word shapen can mean to be born or brought forth. David was born or brought forth in iniquity.

This passag is about much more than conception. It is about what was conceived (a sinner).
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
No - Im asking, IF a man could live his life sinless, would he go to heaven? Me4Him said "Jesus death took away the "Law" that required everyone to die for the sin they committed, " so I'm asking then is it possible, that if someone never once sinned in his life (hypothetically - go with me on this guys), he'd be able to go to heaven?
Jesus said in Mt. 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
How exceptional were these cases though? Before God's vision to Peter and the ministry of Paul how many non Hebrews were being saved?
It depends on how exceptional they were. We don't know the minds of others, nor how many proselytes there were amongst the Israelites. Fact is...His "chosen people" consisted of non Israelites, too.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
No - Im asking, IF a man could live his life sinless, would he go to heaven? Me4Him said "Jesus death took away the "Law" that required everyone to die for the sin they committed, " so I'm asking then is it possible, that if someone never once sinned in his life (hypothetically - go with me on this guys), he'd be able to go to heaven?
I don't think this can be answered to anyones satisfaction. Faith in Christ is necessary to go to Heaven...so this alone takes away any potential hypothetical.
 
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