In Eph 2:8, 9 you are saved through what? What is man's responsibility?
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A question about Calvinism
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Thinkingstuff
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Thanks.
My point is that Calvinists say that "all" men can't repent or believe, but only those whom God has chosen and has regenerated. Yet the bible clearly says that God commands "all" men "everywhere" to repent. This is a universal command. Does God require repentance from those who cannot possibly repent because they have not been "chosen" and regenerated? I don't think so. God has given every man a measure of faith which is to be exercised toward God. To say that only the regenerate can repent or have faith is against biblical teaching IMO. Although, no one can come to God without His drawing, the bible teaches that He has called everyone to repentance, so that those who find themselves in hell will be there because they chose not to repent and believe, not because God passed them over.
You make an excellent point. But a Calvinist (I would guess) would state that the command whether able or not still stands. From a Calvinistic point of view Man is already condemned and in that state must suffer the consequences Yet the Mercy of God has Elected those to whom the gift of faith is given. Understanding or not is irrelevant to the comand so to speak.
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God
Eph 2:8
No responsibility of man, do you notice the second half of verse 8? It is a gift from God, man does not posses the capacity to believe by himself
Sounds about right
So God holds man accountable for rejecting a God who didn't come to save them?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Theoretically, God does save all men. Yet in any Christian Paradigm this is not the case. Applicability: only a few will be saved. Every man can be saved by that same sacrifice. Yet not every man will be. All men are saved the same way but there are those that will not be saved. Man is accountable at Adam. The price of that accountability is eternal damnation. God's mercy selects those who will be saved. God takes care of what man as a species needs to be saved. Thus incerting salvation for all yet due to mans nature man cannot even know this so God in his mercy elects those to see. This falls under Total depravity. Thats, I think a Calvinistic point of view.
I don't follow that theory. If God didn't die for a group of people, and empower them with saving faith if He did die for them, the reprobate are held accountable for rejecting a God who had no intention of saving them. That doesn't sound like God saves all men.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Adam sinned and as a result all his species are condemned. (Total Depravity) That is the state of affairs from the begining. Adam had the ability to choose and he chose sin. Now God doesn't let things stay that way he provides a way out. A singular method, by which, if taken, every man who takes it can be saved. God dies for the whole world. Yet man has sin at work in him and cannot consieve the possibility of the need for salvation. God works to inform those men he's chosen as elect, not based on anything the men has or does (unconditional election) to work with for the gaining of salvation. They realize their need for salvation. (Limited Attonment) Therefore only they will take up the call for salvation and only they will perservere to the end. (irresistable grace) and (perserverance of the saints). So theoretically if all men had the free will Adam did and had no encoumberance to their will they could all be saved by the same method. But they don't because they can't.
As a result of Adam's sin, all are appointed once to die...not appointed to condemnation. That is a huge difference. Limited Atonment means God has not died for all men, what you alluded to earlier in your response. God give every man truth (Romans 1).
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You're not understanding what I'm saying. If every man were to chose salvation it would be by the same method universally applied. But this is clearly not the case as I've stated. Only those who are elect will choose to be saved therefore the applicability of the attonment is limited with that regard. Theoretically, the singular method by which men are saved could apply to everyone but there is the issue of applicability. To die is both in the sense of physical death and spiritual death. We are codemned both ways because of Adams sin. Dead men cannot cause themselves to rise. IT is the HS breath (as it is in Adam to make him alive) that brings about spiritual life enough to know we need salvation. It is this starting point that Calvinism begins.
Certainly salvation is not of our own doing but it is our responsibility to respond accordingly.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Would you be able to respond had it not been for the Holy Spirit?
Exactly we can not respond without the Holy Spirit, that is why salvation is of no work so no man can boost.
I understand what you are saying, but I believe this is all man's theology and not biblical. We are not condemned to die spiritually in Adam...we die spiritually like Adam, upon sinning. If one passes from life to death, that is salvation...that is not the forerunner TO salvation.
Nobody can respond without God reaching out first. This is not the same thing as regeneration, however.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
The psalmist said that we are concieved in sin. The moment of our conseption we are condemned as sinners
Though at no time did the psalmist personally sin at his conseption so it must be a state of being inherited by being human.
here we see how Paul shows that sin disconnects us from the spiritual life. So we are dead spiritually and our bodies will ultimately follow. it is God who regenerates the dead.
The Psalms are poetic language, and he said he was conceived in sin...not mankind. Psalms 58, he says he was a sinner "from the womb", so it is evident that hyperbole is being used. By the very definition of sinner it is one who sins, and being conceived is not a sin.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I boost all the time but thats because I'm short :smilewinkgrin:
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