The wife is to fear (phobew) her husband (Ephesians 5:33)

[Olivencia]

Ephesians 5:33 "phobew"
1. Kittel: ...fear can denote the obedience demanded by the superior authority of masters or husbands as lords. "Certainly these are to expect love from their husbands rather than anger (Eph. 5:25, 28, 33) and yet they are still to fear in subordination, for they owe this to their exemplary walk (1 Pt. 3:2) or to their husbands ws tw kuriw (Eph. 5:22, cf. 33) (TDNT 9:217, phobew).
2. Danker - to have a profound measure of respect for, (have) reverence, respect, w. special ref. to fear of offending (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, phobew, 1061).
3. Vine: (b) to show reverential fear (1) ...Eph. 5:33 (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, fear - phobew, page 415).

 

[Scarlett O.]

This will be my only post in this thread.

Let’s start with the actual verse from the King James Version.

Ephesians 5:32-33

“This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless, let everyone of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.”

Since you are so fond of lexicons, I will use my favorite standby…..Strong’s Lexicon and Concordance.

The word reverence is the word φοβέω.

It has several meanings as far as Biblical usage. I can’t help but wonder why you only chose one of the meanings? And your Mr. Kittel did not say that this means that men are masters who demand obedience in this context. He it can mean that. I think he’s wrong.

Here’s ALL of the meanings in Biblical context of that word “phobeo” according to Strong’s Lexicon.

• ”to put to flight by terrifying; to scare away” (This can’t be the meaning because husbands are to love their wives and treat them with “consideration” or else their prayers won’t be answered. How can terrifying their wives fit into this charge?)
• ”to put to flight; to flee” (Wives are not to run away from their husbands in terror and husbands are not to chase them away)
• ”to fear; to be afraid” (This can’t be it because Peter said, in that verse you like to quote about Sarah calling her husband, “lord”, that women are to NOT be afraid. You can’t have it both ways, Olivencia.)
• ”to be struck with fear; to be seized with alarm" (This can’t be it. Husbands aren’t charged to make their wives have panic attacks)
• to be struck with fear - startled with strange sights and occurrences" (This can’t be it either. I don’t think that a wife is supposed to view her husband as a “strange sight” or her marriage as a “strange occurrence)
• ”to be struck with amazement” (Hmm…..it’s possible. That verse in 1 Peter, the one you like to quote about Sarah calling her husband, “lord”, Peter says that wives are to NOT be afraid with any amazement. I think we are getting closer to the meaning of “reverence” in this verse)
• to fear; to be afraid of one (There are many wives who are afraid of their husbands and it’s a miserable existence. This isn’t it)
• "to hesitate in doing something for fear of harm" (There are wives out there who hesitate to speak, cook something unusual, wear a certain hairstyle, voice an opinion, and lots of other things for fear that their husbands will knock the “stuffing” out of them. Olivencia, this isn’t it.)
• "to reverence, venerate, treat with deference or reverential obedience." (This, brother, is it. Of all of the Biblical meanings of this word, reverence, phobeo, this definition applies to the way a wife is to relate herself to her husband.)

All of these other definitions of the word reverence, phobeo, do have meaning in other parts of the Bible. The word is only found 13 times in the King James Bible.

You should do a study of those 13 passages and see the differences in the contexts.

Feel free to give a rebuttal. I will read it, but I will not reply anymore to this thread.

Peace to you -

 

[Olivencia]

Strong's does in no way compare to the likes of Vine, Kittel and Danker. Strong is not as specific in defining the Greek word for various passages. I chose the meaning that these three did. Why not question them.
I can see why you think Kittel is wrong.
I have no problem that it has various meanings but if you or anyone else simply dismiss Kittel, Danker and Vine and how they define it in this passage I would like to see more than just an opinion.

Thank you

 

[Olivencia]

One more thing that I thought of Scarlett, I think you are making a false dichotomy between reverence and fear. It is not really an either/or but a both/and in this passage.
This is precisely how it reads in Danker's "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature" that I cited in my OP:

to have a profound measure of respect for, (have) reverence, respect, w. special ref. to fear of offending

 

[menageriekeeper]

I have no problem that it has various meanings but if you or anyone else simply dismiss Kittel, Danker and Vine and how they define it in this passage I would like to see more than just an opinion.

"Dismissing" them? Its called eating the meat and throwing out the bones. You must remember that all these men were simply men. Prone to make mistakes just like the rest of humanity.

While I haven't responded to one of your threads before (I don't think), I've read enough to understand that you somehow equate the reverence a wife should have for her husband to mean that she should somehow not ever disagree with him, that she should always obey his requests without questioning him, that she should somehow lose her personality in favor of his. A nice quiet little wifey who stays home and cooks, cleans and raises the children. She doesn't need much education, because then she might be tempted to have her own ideas (can't have that). You even toss out a few verses of scripture that seem to prop up your opinion and when that fails you go out and try to find support among the so called experts of another time all without considering that they were just as liable to be wrong as any other man/woman.

Yes, the Bible gives us instructions on how a marriage is to be assembled. Along with instructions to the wife, it gives equal instructions to the husband. Things like sacrifice and love.

You spend an awful lot of time discussing what women should do, but as a man, shouldn't you be more concerned about what YOU should do?

Let me tell you, when you begin to change into the husband God expects, your wife will have no problem becoming the wife God expects. (if both are Christian of course. We can't hold nonChristians to a Christian standard) Stop ranting on how bad women are and get busy working on bad men are! You can only change yourself. God did not give you the ability to change the heart of anyone else.

Once you change your persepctive from "how do I make my wife into what God wants her to be" to "how do I make myself into what God wants me to be" you will be a much more content person and you will lose your need to point out what womankind are doing wrong and better able to discern what they are doing right. You know, Christ himself gave us teaching on this particular subject. It goes something like this: Get the log out of your own eye before you try to get rid of the speck in your brother/sisters eye.

 

[Mexdeaf]

"Dismissing" them? Its called eating the meat and throwing out the bones. You must remember that all these men were simply men. Prone to make mistakes just like the rest of humanity.

While I haven't responded to one of your threads before (I don't think), I've read enough to understand that you somehow equate the reverence a wife should have for her husband to mean that she should somehow not ever disagree with him, that she should always obey his requests without questioning him, that she should somehow lose her personality in favor of his. A nice quiet little wifey who stays home and cooks, cleans and raises the children. She doesn't need much education, because then she might be tempted to have her own ideas (can't have that). You even toss out a few verses of scripture that seem to prop up your opinion and when that fails you go out and try to find support among the so called experts of another time all without considering that they were just as liable to be wrong as any other man/woman.

Yes, the Bible gives us instructions on how a marriage is to be assembled. Along with instructions to the wife, it gives equal instructions to the husband. Things like sacrifice and love.

You spend an awful lot of time discussing what women should do, but as a man, shouldn't you be more concerned about what YOU should do?

Let me tell you, when you begin to change into the husband God expects, your wife will have no problem becoming the wife God expects. (if both are Christian of course. We can't hold nonChristians to a Christian standard) Stop ranting on how bad women are and get busy working on bad men are! You can only change yourself. God did not give you the ability to change the heart of anyone else.

Once you change your persepctive from "how do I make my wife into what God wants her to be" to "how do I make myself into what God wants me to be" you will be a much more content person and you will lose your need to point out what womankind are doing wrong and better able to discern what they are doing right. You know, Christ himself gave us teaching on this particular subject. It goes something like this: Get the log out of your own eye before you try to get rid of the speck in your brother/sisters eye.

:thumbs: :applause: :thumbsup: :wavey: (That's AMEN in sign language!)

 

[donnA]

a wife should never have to be afraid of her husband, if she has this need, then he isn't being a biblical husband.

 

[4His_glory]

One more thing that I thought of Scarlett, I think you are making a false dichotomy between reverence and fear. It is not really an either/or but a both/and in this passage.
This is precisely how it reads in Danker's "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature" that I cited in my OP:

to have a profound measure of respect for, (have) reverence, respect, w. special ref. to fear of offending

I have not posted much recently, but I do check in from time to time, and I noticed several threads by you Olivencia.

You need to understand something about Greek. By no way am I an expert or a Greek scholar but I did take two years of it, and I am sure those who have studied it longer would agree with me on this.

You can not just use lemma definitions to arrive at an understanding of a text. The grammar is intrinsically important in determining the meaning of a given text. Many words function differently in certain contexts therefore an understanding of the grammar is essential.

You are not impressing anybody with your continual citing of lexicons. Instead your coming across as an arrogant know-it-all.

Learn proper hermeneutics and when you do, you will find that the Scriptures do not support your rather sexist view of women.

Frankly what the Bible has to say about men in regards to loving and caring for their wives is much more "severe" (for lack of a better word) than what is says of a wife's relationship to her husband. We are to love our wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. Take some time to look at all the ramifications of that before you start another thread browbeating women.

 

[annsni]

Titus 2:3-5 tells us who is to be teaching women how to love their husbands - and it's not some guy on the internet.

"Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. "

So unless you're an older woman - more mature in the faith and in marriage, you have no right to be teaching women here on BB how to be wives.

 

[annsni]

"Dismissing" them? Its called eating the meat and throwing out the bones. You must remember that all these men were simply men. Prone to make mistakes just like the rest of humanity.

While I haven't responded to one of your threads before (I don't think), I've read enough to understand that you somehow equate the reverence a wife should have for her husband to mean that she should somehow not ever disagree with him, that she should always obey his requests without questioning him, that she should somehow lose her personality in favor of his. A nice quiet little wifey who stays home and cooks, cleans and raises the children. She doesn't need much education, because then she might be tempted to have her own ideas (can't have that). You even toss out a few verses of scripture that seem to prop up your opinion and when that fails you go out and try to find support among the so called experts of another time all without considering that they were just as liable to be wrong as any other man/woman.

Yes, the Bible gives us instructions on how a marriage is to be assembled. Along with instructions to the wife, it gives equal instructions to the husband. Things like sacrifice and love.

You spend an awful lot of time discussing what women should do, but as a man, shouldn't you be more concerned about what YOU should do?

Let me tell you, when you begin to change into the husband God expects, your wife will have no problem becoming the wife God expects. (if both are Christian of course. We can't hold nonChristians to a Christian standard) Stop ranting on how bad women are and get busy working on bad men are! You can only change yourself. God did not give you the ability to change the heart of anyone else.

Once you change your persepctive from "how do I make my wife into what God wants her to be" to "how do I make myself into what God wants me to be" you will be a much more content person and you will lose your need to point out what womankind are doing wrong and better able to discern what they are doing right. You know, Christ himself gave us teaching on this particular subject. It goes something like this: Get the log out of your own eye before you try to get rid of the speck in your brother/sisters eye.

Thank you, MK, for you wise words.

 

[rbell]

You spend an awful lot of time discussing what women should do, but as a man, shouldn't you be more concerned about what YOU should do?

Bingo.

He spends an inordinate amount of time on this point. Why is he hammering it so? Who's he trying to convince?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Rbell, I find that when someone is this adamant that they are right, it means that God is getting ahold of them about something in their lives, but they are trying distract God by pointing what someone else is doing worse instead of confessing their own sin.

 

[Olivencia]

"Dismissing" them? Its called eating the meat and throwing out the bones. You must remember that all these men were simply men. Prone to make mistakes just like the rest of humanity.
---> No it's called picking and choosing what one wants to believe from the Bible. You have cited no Greek lexicon at all. Thanks for your "opinion".
----------------------------------------------------
You spend an awful lot of time discussing what women should do, but as a man, shouldn't you be more concerned about what YOU should do?

--> Because as shown here it is constantly being denied. My wife laughs at you people. Why don't they just say "amen" and move on. I'm like, "Why do you think I came to the Philippines"?!
--------------------------------------------------
a wife should never have to be afraid of her husband, if she has this need, then he isn't being a biblical husband.

--> Thanks for your "opinion". I wonder if God approved of how the Israelites were to view Moses and Joshua (Joshua 4:14).
-----------------------------------------
You can not just use lemma definitions to arrive at an understanding of a text. The grammar is intrinsically important in determining the meaning of a given text. Many words function differently in certain contexts therefore an understanding of the grammar is essential.

--> And these authors of the greatest Greek lexicons known to man were clueless concerning this? Get real.

You are not impressing anybody with your continual citing of lexicons. Instead your coming across as an arrogant know-it-all.

--> I just don't give my opinion. Those who ought to be ashamed are the ones who continually deny but then simply give their opinion. Here's a mirror.

Learn proper hermeneutics and when you do, you will find that the Scriptures do not support your rather sexist view of women.

--> Thanks for citing.....yourself.
-----------------------------------------------
Titus 2:3-5 tells us who is to be teaching women how to love their husbands - and it's not some guy on the internet.

"Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. "

So unless you're an older woman - more mature in the faith and in marriage, you have no right to be teaching women here on BB how to be wives.

--> So a preacher (male) should never preach on this subject? How dare those lexicons (written by men) tell us what the word means!! Man your theology is warped. It doesn't read "only" older women are to do this but that older women should do it.
Keep trying...

 

[4His_glory]

And these authors of the greatest Greek lexicons known to man were clueless concerning this? Get real.

No they were not clueless, they give us the lexical definition of a word. But as I said. The grammar is vital to understand how the word is used. Many bad doctrines can be built on just looking up what a word means and running with it. To be a honest with the text we must consider the context and this involves studying the grammar as well as the historical context of the passage.

 

[annsni]

--> So a preacher (male) should never preach on this subject? How dare those lexicons (written by men) tell us what the word means!! Man your theology is warped. It doesn't read "only" older women are to do this but that older women should do it.
Keep trying...

Yes, older women are to do it. Are you a woman? Then don't teach me how to be a wife. You have no clue. Maybe work on being a Godly husband instead. Start some threads on how a husband is to treat his wife.

 

[Olivencia]

Quote:
And these authors of the greatest Greek lexicons known to man were clueless concerning this? Get real.

No they were not clueless, they give us the lexical definition of a word. But as I said. The grammar is vital to understand how the word is used. Many bad doctrines can be built on just looking up what a word means and running with it. To be a honest with the text we must consider the context and this involves studying the grammar as well as the historical context of the passage.

--> And they were clueless in terms of the grammer. Not just one of them but three of them? Vine got it wrong. Kittel got it wrong and Danker got it wrong but....you got it right. Right? No way.
-----------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivencia
--> So a preacher (male) should never preach on this subject? How dare those lexicons (written by men) tell us what the word means!! Man your theology is warped. It doesn't read "only" older women are to do this but that older women should do it.
Keep trying...

Yes, older women are to do it. Are you a woman? Then don't teach me how to be a wife. You have no clue. Maybe work on being a Godly husband instead. Start some threads on how a husband is to treat his wife.

--> Did you read what I wrote?? It doesn't read that ONLY older women are do to do it.
I have already started a thread on how a husband is to treat his wife.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=58941

Stop looking for an escape for your disobedience.

 

[annsni]

Stop looking for an escape for your disobedience.

What makes you say I'm disobedient? Because I don't call my husband "master"? I instead call him "love", "honey" or "Bob"??

 

[Olivencia]

What is the big deal with you people?
I just recently told my father when I was at his home that he is the master of the house. Wow that was so hard to do. I'm his son but still have that fear/respect for him because he is my father.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I just recently told my father when I was at his home that he is the master of the house. Wow that was so hard to do. I'm his son but still have that fear/respect for him because he is my father.

I can just IMAGINE how that conversation went!!!:laugh:

 

[annsni]

What is the big deal with you people?
I just recently told my father when I was at his home that he is the master of the house. Wow that was so hard to do. I'm his son but still have that fear/respect for him because he is my father.

That was very generous of you to tell your father the facts. Isn't EVERY man the master of his house?

????