How do we treat Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease or even the common cold? In all of these cases we treat symptoms not the underlying problem. That's because we don't yet understand the underlying causes. The same is true, unfortunately, about depression.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Why was Spurgeon depressed?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
- Start date
How do we treat Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease or even the common cold? In all of these cases we treat symptoms not the underlying problem. That's because we don't yet understand the underlying causes. The same is true, unfortunately, about depression.
Not entirely. I don't think there is any case when Alzheimer's or Parkinson's is the result of dejection about the current state of our lives. Depression almost always is. My point is that we need to understand that. There may be physical reasons. We know there are with Alzheimers and Parkinsons and the common cold. We don't know that with depression and that is why simplistic approaches are inadequate.
Hank had some good words to say that all who deal with depression need to hear. In addition, we need to remember that just because someone is tough with you doesn't mean they don't understand. Many times, a counselor can be tough precisely because they do understand. They have been there and experienced it. And those who have can bring a perspective to it that others cannot, particularly when they are operating from a biblical foundation.
So again, my caution is against the simplicity that so many seem to approach this with. It is not that easy.
Life gives results that often the person with "all the answers" knows little about until he gets there. You gave a great example of how we should consider others who come into our life. I also believe that it is the responsibility of the younger to care for the older. Many people came to Christ in a small community where I lived because a young lady started a ministry of caring for elderly people. Neighbors saw a church in action. That kind of love and care gets the attention of people. I heard words about her from people I met as far away as about 200 miles whop knew people in that small community.
Eccl. 12:6-7, "Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
Last edited by a moderator:
Sometimes doctors know the problem and cause but there is nothing they can do. It is like a worn out engine. A replacement would work but people cannot be replaced like interchangeable parts.
My statement is very clear. You didn't address it. We do not know the root cause of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, the common cold, or depression. Do you agree with that statement or not? Believe me, I don't approach the question of depression with simplicity. Far from it. I have said here that it's a complex combination of physical, psychological and spiritual causes. You attempt to make it simply a spiritual problem. You're the one who is naive and simplistic with regard to this illness.
This is true. However as you stated, an admonishment is most effective when it comes from someone who has been there (although not a requirement).
There is indeed a time to be firm and admonish but it should be from a spiritual and skilled individual. Ideally, from one who has been there.
The worst thing an afflicted one can do is wallow in the proverbial pool of self pity and/or blame God.
Take Job for instance:
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
God's answer:
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Ultimately, the answer is from God Himself and the root cause as Pinoy has said is ouselves: that we are fallen beings. These two things are so simple a given that we often try to bypass them.
HankD
Come on............
psychobable aside.
Now i didn't know Mr. Spurgeon personally and have not read him extensively; but, has it occurred to you (yall) that he was just overly (if that's possible) concerned that no matter how often, hard or desperately he preached. Folks were still not "hearing" the word and they were busting hell wide open every day!
Just the thought is depressing....................:BangHead:
psychobable aside.
Now i didn't know Mr. Spurgeon personally and have not read him extensively; but, has it occurred to you (yall) that he was just overly (if that's possible) concerned that no matter how often, hard or desperately he preached. Folks were still not "hearing" the word and they were busting hell wide open every day!
Just the thought is depressing....................:BangHead:
MY bad, i jumped in and posted before i realized that there were 7 pages of text. now that i have read them, my reply would be about the same except to say that i have to agree with Jim1999
I know that God has his plan........and though He slay me yet will i trust Him.
I did address it. Read again.
I generally agree, but I don’t know enough about the issues of these three diseases. To my knowledge, no one has ever attributed any of these to despondency about life. Do you know of anyone who has?
I don’t believe you, at least as far as you have commented here.
That’s as clear a statement as you have ever made that I recall, and I am glad that you agree with me. This is what I have said from the very beginning.
However, I am curious how you define a “psychological” cause as opposed to spiritual and physical. Usually, I think psychologists use that to describe issues of the immaterial part of man, which is what we should call the spiritual part since it deals with the spirit. It is usually distinct from physical.
That is just simply dishonest and shameful. In virtually every post in this thread, I have commented that it might be physical or it might be spiritual. I have often commented on the complexity of human life that makes it virtually impossible to separate these. I think there are some here who deny the spiritual side of it.
You accused me in your very first post on page 1 that I "jump to the conclusion that depression is not caused by a chemical imbalance but by personality problems or life situations." I asked where I said this, and you never showed it. The truth is made no such jump. In fact, to the contrary I pointed out the fact that Spurgeon had physical issues that probably contributed to his depression. Routinely I have continued to make the point that depression might be caused by physical or spiritual, or a combination of both.
So why you say I try to "make it simply a spiritual problem" is confusing. It is utterly baseless. You need to read what I have said, and you need to issue an apology for your unconscionable attempt to misrepresent what I have said.
Here's what I said in post #55 on page 6, that you ignored:
Depression might be a spiritual issue.
Depression might be a physical issue.
The human body is complex and physical issues and spiritual issues are sometimes interrelated and inseparable.
Medicine has not yet determined whether physical issues are causes of depression or results of it. It is a greatly unstudied field.
No matter one's condition, obedience to God is non-negotiable.
Now, rather than trying to trade experiences and personal barbs, do you disagree with any of that?
That’s just a dumb thing to say. You don’t know me. You have not interacted with hardly anything I have said here. You certainly don’t know where I have been and what I have dealt with. I am the one who is rejecting the simplicity that you approach this topic with in this thread. It provides no hope, and I hope that before you ever speak to a depressed person that you will take time to learn. I can assure you with no fear of contradiction that I do know what I am talking about, and I know the limits of what I know.
I agree, though I don't think I would say it is "most effective." I think I would say it is often "best received" when it comes from someone who has been there.
i am talking about the mode of treatment. I understand that there is a difference in Alzheimer's, depression and the common cold.
The difference means that we can't really compare them. I think that even the attempt to compare them reveals that you don't really understand the issues involved.
But, back to the point, you said some things about me that manifestly are not true. Are you willing to make that right?
This whole thread you have ignored what I have actually said. Now you are doing it again. I ask again, are you willing to make that right and apologize for attributing to me beliefs that I do not hold and that I expressly refuted?
The fact that you don't think they can be compared simply demonstrates that you believe that depression is ONLY caused by spiritual problems, demon possession or repressed anger. That's what I've said yo thought from the beginning of this discussion.
Flash!! Alzheimer's is due to some sort of physical problem in the brain but we don't know exactly what. Clinical depression very often is due to some sort of physical problem in the brain but we don't know exactly what. The symptums of both can be treated using medication but we haven't found a cure for either one. See the similarity?
Then why have I said numerous times that depression can be caused by physical issues?
That could be said about any number of diseases. But do you know anyone who believes that Alzheimer's is caused by people who have a unbiblical outlook on life? I don't. I do know for a fact that depression is often caused by an unbiblical outlook on life. See why they can't be compared?
In the end, you have been dishonest and you know it. You owe an apology and you need to make it right.
I have not said that depression is only spiritual in nature. Many times, I have expressly said to the contrary.
In my own case, my family was given the legal right of my care and treatment.
Fortunately a certain family member would not allow shock therapy but I was administered psychoactive drugs which only sent me into oblivion or knocked me out.
IMO, depression is mostly spiritual in nature. My unprofessional view is that the physical usually follows or develops after the spiritual due to lack of proper sleep and/or a poor diet. I lost about 50 lbs in a few months.
There may be, I suppose, a physical cause for depression. I know that during my treatment many in the hospitals were given Lithium for a supposed chemical imbalance thought to result in a depressed state of being.
My wife was told I would be institutionalized for the rest of my life.
The drugs dealt with the symptoms, the Scripture became my daily medicine, though it was several years before the joy of my salvation was restored.
One day many years later I happened to meet one of my old doctors on the bus.
He asked if it was really me.
HankD
Fortunately a certain family member would not allow shock therapy but I was administered psychoactive drugs which only sent me into oblivion or knocked me out.
IMO, depression is mostly spiritual in nature. My unprofessional view is that the physical usually follows or develops after the spiritual due to lack of proper sleep and/or a poor diet. I lost about 50 lbs in a few months.
There may be, I suppose, a physical cause for depression. I know that during my treatment many in the hospitals were given Lithium for a supposed chemical imbalance thought to result in a depressed state of being.
My wife was told I would be institutionalized for the rest of my life.
The drugs dealt with the symptoms, the Scripture became my daily medicine, though it was several years before the joy of my salvation was restored.
One day many years later I happened to meet one of my old doctors on the bus.
He asked if it was really me.
HankD
Don't know, but funny you should mention that. I was just listening to a podcast of Wretched Radio from last week and heard Todd Friel say the same thing.
John Piper has also admitted to dealing with clinical depression.
This is another interesting perspective. Drugs have a deadening affect, a painkiller type affect that doesn't address the problems ... it deadens the pain. We end up medicating problems rather than solving them. In a sense it is like someone who self-medicates by alcohol (or s*x is another common self-medication). They get discouraged or depressed. They go do something. When the buzz is gone, the problems are still there. And as I remind alcoholics all the time, now you have a hangover to go along with the problems.
Some seem unwilling to realize this, and as I say, it is a dangerous way to treat depression. It doesn't provide any hope. People start thinking that to be "normal" they have to take meds. And in many cases we do not know the long terms affects of these meds.
Note this from an interview with Ed Welch: “If there are issues of the heart, the person won’t be able to mask them. Physical treatment will affect physical symptoms. So medication can’t give you hope. It can’t give you more love for God for your neighbor but it may have you feel a little bit different. You might feel perhaps cognitively a bit more clearer if you take medication, at its best.”
Once we realize that man's greatest responsibility is to love God and love others, it drastically changes the way we deal with life. Unfortunately, the Bible takes a back seat to people.
(And no, Freedom, I am not denying that depression has physical causes. But at some point you need to listen to people who have actually been there, who aren't talking about someone else's experiences or what they read in a book somewhere.)
It was interesting to hear Piper and MacArthur talk about this in a recent interview. MacArthur says stuff never bothers him. He just goes on to the next thing. Piper is much more introspective and stuff really bothers him.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Has anyone guessed that Spurgeon was depressed because he lived in England? I grew up in East Africa and was used to Tropical weather. Upon Joining the Air Force (and after training at Lackland which is comprable weather to what I was used to) I was stationed in the UK. I was depressed for several months because all that country did was rain! I missed the sun! And had to settle for cold drizzle. Interestingly enough my first assignment saw the suicide of two young Airmen and the attempt of a third.
No, I don't see why they can't be compared. I happen to believe that an unbiblical outlook, continuous anger, stress, etc. has an effect on just about ANY physical disease. Do you believe that a heart attack can be caused by stress or anger? Physical problems and emotional problems are often related. Now do you understand why these two can be compared. They both have elements of each.
This is what you said about the potential physical causes of depression:
We have to remember that chemical imbalances have never actually been documented as causal in the way that many people think. The medicines used to treat them are treating symptoms. They are not sure that they treat causes. So we should be cautious with that kind of terminology and thinking.
In what way does this support your contention that you have said "numerous times that depression can be caused by physical issues."
YOU are the one who has been dishonest and trivialized the physical aspects of a dreadful DISEASE that affects millions of people. YOU owe them and me an apology.
Last edited by a moderator: