Why was Spurgeon depressed?

Yes. I have exactly the same attitude. Cancer is a physical disease. It's cause, therefore, could be physical. However, a person could have cancer because they are living in disobedience to God and God is disciplining them. I do not know what the cause is. My responsibility is to minister to the person, regardless of the cause. No matter how a person may be afflicted in life, there may be a physical element to the affliction and there may be a spiritual element. This is always true.

Consider the issue of blindness. In the scriptures, the man born blind in the book of John was thought by the disciples to have been born that way because of sin. However, Jesus stated clearly that this was not the case. However, there are other people in the scriptures who were struck with blindness specifically because of their sin. Think of the men of Sodom to whom blindness came. Because God has not revealed to me the cause of another person's ailment, as he has revealed the cause in these two cases of blindness, I hold open the possibility of either cause, but I do not judge what is the actual cause because I have not been told what the cause is. If you don't view situations this way, I do not see how you could possibly counsel another person effectively.

 

Frankly you haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about!

 

So you think hope doesn't help depression or fear or fretting or the like?

 

Sure, but I am not sure what *Let's try it on for size* means, please elaborate.

Also, I need for you to give me an example of being "callous" from one of my posts.

Thanks
HankD

 

This is a great day. OldReg I agree with you 100%.

 

I find it hard to believe that someone who claims to have a "Christian" world view could answer in this way.

 

OK. Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

HankD

 

I was just testing you. When I was told this you said this was a debate and I should accept it. You failed.

 

If you knew anything about clinical depression you might, I hope, think differently. I suggest that you read a little about it before preaching a sermon.

My answer has nothing to do with faith. If you knew someone with cancer or plugged arteries in the heart would you advise them just to have faith. Your rationale makes as much sense as that of the Word of Faith people.

 

First please note that I did not say that hope does not help fear or fretting or the like.

But clinical depression is not like fear or fretting or the like.
Neither is panic disorder like fear or fretting or the like.
Neither is bipolar like fear or fretting or the like.
Neither is cancer like fear or fretting or the like.
Neither is heart disease like fear or fretting or the like.
Neither is a stroke like fear or fretting or the like.
Neither is rheumatoid arthritis like fear or fretting or the like.
And so on and on and on.

 

Freedom

I am glad that we can agree on something.:thumbs: Frankly the misunderstanding of some Christians regarding clinical depression is very disturbing. So hang in there. I am sure our faith will be questioned as mine already has.

 

Actually Elijah was having a pity party, not suffering from clinical depression.

 

Great Post!:thumbsup:

I have a brother in Tennessee. Some years ago his pastor was suffering from depression. He apparently thought, as some on this Forum do, that it was a spiritual problem. He eventually sought medical help. Unfortunately he waited too late and took his own life.

It is true that not all anti depressants meds work for all people. It is possible that some may make the depression worse in some people, particularly teenagers. Furthermore, with most meds it takes 2-4 weeks for the medicine to have full beneficial affect. For Christians to blame this medical problem on lack of faith is disturbing to say the least.

 

I will tell you the same thing I told Jedi Knight. You haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

 

Have you known anyone with Alzheimer's disease. It appears from your response that you haven't. If that is true you have no idea what you are talking about.

There is no exact diagnosis for Alzheimer's disease on a living person. The best that neurologists can do is make a good guess. An autopsy is the only positive diagnosis. The examination of the brain shows distinct differences from the normal brain. The brain of an Alzheimer's victim contains something called "plaques and tangles".

 

Jim

I am repeating myself but you do have a way with words. Frequently those few words deliver a well deserved chastening to some of us.

 

It seems to me that the cheap and easy answers come from those who refuse to admit that clinical depression is a medical problem.

 

I know. I was asking for clarification on what you meant.

All of these things can be spiritual in nature. They might not be. But they can be. I have dealt with people in all three categories on a routine basis in ministry, so I am well familiar with the various issues. That is one reason why I have mediated on this over the years. I am more familiar now with it. There is both a spiritual and a physical component. But as I pointed out, the causal relationship is not always clear. Bipolar can be the result of sin, where certain sinful choices have created brain issues. Same with panic disorders, anxiety, and the like, all of which can be merely spiritual or immaterial, or may also have a physical component. They are not less than immaterial/spiritual. They may be more.

These things are clearly different than the list above. You have confused your categories here. All of the first list will be found in the DSM. None of the second will be found there. The DSM, for those not familiar, is the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual of Mental Disorders. Clearly, you are conflating two kinds of issues that doctors do not conflate. Cancer, heart disease, stroke, or rheumatoid arthritis are not "mental disorders" and are therefore in a different category.

Interestingly, these two are not always discernible unless you have a theological framework for dealing with them.

Yes, a long time member of my church has had Alzheimer's for more than ten years. Her family deals with it daily. A good pastor friend of mine has a mother with Alzheimers. Both are in complete lockdown facilities now. Another lady in the church may have had Alzheimers (the doctors never decided for sure and they didn't do an autopsy because it didn't matter). I visited her more her because she got it later. In fact, she was the first pastoral visit I ever made as the pastor this church. The first lady I quit visiting because she had no idea who I was. As I said, she was totally divorced from reality of her past. She doesn't even know her family. The second lady would flash in and out of it, just like a light going on and off, and sometimes that fast. If I mentioned things from long ago, she would remember them sometimes, but then the next sentence, she would have no idea about what we had just talked about, and she wouldn't even know who I was. BTW, Alzheimer's is considered a mental disorder. It is found in DSM-IV.

You are correct. Ed Welch deals with this very cogently in Blame It On the Brain? It is a book that you should be familiar with if you aren't. There are some very complex issues with Alzheimers and Christian faith.

It actually comes from both sides. Those who claim it is absolutely all medical don't know what they are talking about. Those who claim it is all spiritual don't know what they are talking about. As I have often said, the human body is complex. Depression is a real issue, but we do not know the exact cause. For many, depression is the result of a mental state that is the lack of faith in a sovereign God that brings hopelessness. As a result, it takes a toll on the physical body. The result is that depression is really physical, but the actual cause is spiritual. On the other hand, there are legitimate physical issues that contribute to spiritual despondency. In most cases, we do not know which is which. No one who has a biblical anthropology would suggest anything else, especially not those who have been there and lived it. Those with a solid biblical anthropology who have also lived the darkness have a better grasp on this than most do.

So it is wise to avoid dogmatism. We must recognize that there might be legitimate physical issues (whether they are causes of depression or results of depression). We must also recognize that the primary issue might be spiritual in nature. For instance, believers who live in sin should be depressed, clinically so. They have reason to meet all the necessary standards in DSM-IVtr.

Don't forget that the human is complex. We are spiritual/physical entities, or material/immaterial if you prefer.

Finally, whatever state of "illness" (whether real or not) one finds themselves in, they are still required to obey God.

Psalm 42:5 Why are you in despair, O my soul? And why have you become disturbed within me? Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him For the help of His presence.

I think too many people are afraid to use the Bible to deal with spiritual issues. Even if I am depressed because of physical reasons, I can still hope in God and that alleviates my depression to some degree.

Again, it is very complex issue and we must be careful speaking more than we know. To pretend that it is all physical/medical and only physical/medical ignores a vast amount of biblical teaching on sin and the effects of sin on the soul. To claim that it is all spiritual/immaterial and only spiritual/immaterial ignores a vast amount of teaching on sin and the effects of sin on the body.

Caution is the key. Call people to obedience. Remember the two great commands: Love God and love others. Meds won't help you do that. Depression (or any other disorder) won't remove your responsibility to do that. No matter what our condition (whether depression, cancer, heart disease, Alzheimers) we are still called to love God with all that we are.

 

I don't know what version of the Bible you're quoting from. The KJV says:

Pro 12:25 Heaviness in the heart of man maketh it stoop: but a good word maketh it glad.

I would interpret a heart "stooping" as a sadness or feeling down. This is not a description of clinical depression.