No, the verse says that God actually sees all men as if they have already sinned because of Adam....the whole passage is a comparison of Adam and Christ (vs. 12-21) and our standing before God because of both.
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Infants in Heaven
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
No, the verse says that God actually sees all men as if they have already sinned because of Adam....the whole passage is a comparison of Adam and Christ (vs. 12-21) and our standing before God because of both.
Sorry, you having nothing to substantiate your first statement within the verse in question. It is presupposition and 'nothing' from the text.
The text does not state 'all men have already sinned', not in any manner.
Read it again - I'll even post it a second time:
The verse above states the following:
1)through Adam - 2) sin - 3) came into - 4) the world/mankind/human race
1) through sin - 2)came death [to mankind]
1) so death - 2) spread - 3) to all men - 4) because/for this reason - 5) all [men] sin
NOPE - can't find your statement in there.
With respect to vs 12-22 it is a comparison of two types of people those through Adam and those through Christ and what each gives to their offspring - life or death.
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Michael Heiser in his site called, "The Naked Bible" has been discussing Romans 5:12 (and its implications regarding infants) for some time now.
He tries to separate the verse from the immense theological baggage that surrounds the passage.
[Note: For some reason the site doesn't work well at all with MS Internet Explorer, I suggest using Foxfire]
More on Romans 5:12 (Part 3)
(June 23, 2009)
Romans 5:12, Part 4
(June 26, 2009)
Basically he notes that infants haven't sinned and so are innocent, not guilty of sin, before God…
…but innocence isn't enough to gain access to God's presence, we need the righteousness!
That was righteousness was obtained in the work of Jesus and his glorious resurrection.
Rob
He tries to separate the verse from the immense theological baggage that surrounds the passage.
[Note: For some reason the site doesn't work well at all with MS Internet Explorer, I suggest using Foxfire]
More on Romans 5:12 (Part 3)
(June 23, 2009)
Romans 5:12, Part 4
(June 26, 2009)
Basically he notes that infants haven't sinned and so are innocent, not guilty of sin, before God…
…but innocence isn't enough to gain access to God's presence, we need the righteousness!
That was righteousness was obtained in the work of Jesus and his glorious resurrection.
Rob
Tom Butler
New Member
Then somebody will have to show me exactly how a newborn baby sins. Or a two-year-old.
O.K. Tom. Have you had kids? I've got 8 of them and I've noticed their rebellious little hearts very early on in each of their lives....even within the first few weeks but especially by two years old! Have you ever heard of the terrible twos? Even in very small infants, there is a real sense of impatience and self-centerdness. Psalm 58:3 says:
Now, to be clear....I'm not at all advocating the idea that all infants go to hell. I think that there is enough scripture to support the idea that at least some infants go to heaven. However, these infants don't make it to heaven because they are innocent. They make it to heaven the same way everyone else does: By the regeneration work of the the Holy Spirit!!! Salvation in know way depends on mans mental ability. If this were the case, then all of the most intelligent humans would be in heaven. I just don't think that scripture makes it clear that every single infant or young child that dies goes to heaven.
My wife and I have lost 3 children to miscarriage. I hope that these children are all in heaven. However, our greatest comfort in our loss is not the thought that our children are in heaven. Our greatest comfort is that we know our God was totally sovereign and that He will do what is right and what He decides is right will be right. He has the full right to do whatever he pleases with His creation. This brings us great joy and comfort.
The bottom line is this: If God were to have decided that every young child and infant that dies (not saying He does) were to be sent to hell, would He be a God you could still worship? Are you a respecter of babies or a respecter of God?
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You're right, Babies have no sin.
Ge 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, (closed eyes) ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; (eyes opened) therefore your sin remaineth.
Ge 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Babies aren't ashamed of their nakeness because they aren't aware of sin.
Adam/Eve sinned to fulfill the "lust of the flesh", and because of that, all flesh is condemn to return back to dust,
But Adam/Eve's sin didn't condemn any soul other than their own souls, each soul is accountable only for the sin it's commits.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:
the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
As Jesus said, he came to seek/save that which "WAS LOST", not the "righteous".
Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Mr 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
And if you're blind to sin, age of accountability, you have no sin.
So, when is that age? As I've grown as a Christian...I've become more and more aware of sins that I didn't know I had. So, according to your logic, those things I see now as sin, weren't actually sin until I became aware that it was?
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
Now, sin entered into the world by one man, Adam. Death came also by that sin, that sin of Adam. Death then passed upon all men. Why? For that all have sinned. An alternate translation of this, as contained in the margin by the translators, is "in whom all have sinned." If you read the rest of that chapter it will be born out that in Adam we all sinned because he represented us. When he sinned, we sinned. When he died a death in sins, we did as well. Thus we are conceived dead in sins and needing salvation by Jesus Christ.
Now, sin entered into the world by one man, Adam. Death came also by that sin, that sin of Adam. Death then passed upon all men. Why? For that all have sinned. An alternate translation of this, as contained in the margin by the translators, is "in whom all have sinned." If you read the rest of that chapter it will be born out that in Adam we all sinned because he represented us. When he sinned, we sinned. When he died a death in sins, we did as well. Thus we are conceived dead in sins and needing salvation by Jesus Christ.
Notice how many times the book of Proverbs instructs us to discipline our kids. Here's one example:
Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Right there the bible says foolishness is bound in the heart of a child. Kind of hard to argue that a child is just a little innocent person that has no sin isn't it.
Of course there is always what David wrote in his lamentation over the sin with Bathsheba.
Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
In sin was David, and we also, conceived. The child isn't free from sin. That child isn't innocent and righteous. The child, just as much as the adult, needs to be born of the Spirit of God and have the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ imputed to him/her. That child, just as much as we all, needed Christ to pay for his/her sins at Calvary. I'm not preaching infants into hell, I'm saying that the bible says the infant gets to heaven the same way the adult does, by the saving work of Christ.
Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Right there the bible says foolishness is bound in the heart of a child. Kind of hard to argue that a child is just a little innocent person that has no sin isn't it.
Of course there is always what David wrote in his lamentation over the sin with Bathsheba.
Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
In sin was David, and we also, conceived. The child isn't free from sin. That child isn't innocent and righteous. The child, just as much as the adult, needs to be born of the Spirit of God and have the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ imputed to him/her. That child, just as much as we all, needed Christ to pay for his/her sins at Calvary. I'm not preaching infants into hell, I'm saying that the bible says the infant gets to heaven the same way the adult does, by the saving work of Christ.
Have sinned...past tense. Paul is speaking of those who can sin will and have.
Plus...doesn't your soteriology hold to the fact all doesn't always mean all?
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The age is when they realize they have broken God's Law deliberately (what sin is). In the same way we each develop at different rates physically, I believe we develop the same way spiritually. I had a group of 6th graders at Upwards Basketball camp. During our devotion time maybe one out of ten understood what sin actually was and their condition. For me it was 7 years old.
It's not an intelligence issue...it's the ability to recognize sin.
Your explanation of "Salvation" is totally foreign to how we explain it when witnessing.
OR's quotes of Mohler I think sum things up quite well.
Romans 10:9-10...since an infant is unable to believe, and confess...that presents a problem for those who claim some make it, some don't. Based on that Scripture, if one insists on holding those views...then none would make it.
Once again...OR's explanation (via Mohler) is the most faithful to Scripture, IMO, and is the best.
I'd say it varies with each person, but God knows when, and so will the person when the spirit calls.
Lu 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Believers suffer "Chastisement" for sin,
Unbelievers suffer "Wrath" for sin,
Don't get the two mixed up.
Nu 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Nu 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
Just be glad we don't live under the "LAW".
raying: :godisgood:Adam's sin condemn all flesh, but his sin did not condemn any other soul,
No flesh (and blood) can be saved, all souls can be, each soul is only accountable for the sin "IT COMMITS".
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:
the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
If one passes from death to life, belief is not necessary. A HUGE problem in your soteriology. We become born again upon faith...this is Scriptrue.
Then show me scripture that supports your view that faith brings about the new birth.
Again, I John 5:1 - Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condmenation, but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:47 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life
Present belief shows present possesion of everlasting life, and a present state of having passed from death unto life.
Again, I John 5:1 - Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condmenation, but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:47 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life
Present belief shows present possesion of everlasting life, and a present state of having passed from death unto life.