These verses just prove my point! If someone sins in ignorance, why must there be a sin offering for that person since you said it's not really a sin uness one is conscience of their sin? These verses actually prove that conscience sin and unconscience sin both need atoning for!
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Infants in Heaven
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
These verses just prove my point! If someone sins in ignorance, why must there be a sin offering for that person since you said it's not really a sin uness one is conscience of their sin? These verses actually prove that conscience sin and unconscience sin both need atoning for!
Each of these proves that faith is necessary for justification. However, they don't explain where justifying faith comes from? Does it come from you or from God? I say that according to Ephesians 2:9, that justifying faith is a gift of God. You have as big of a role to play in the new birth as you did in your first birth....none! Unless of course you chose to birth yourself.
You fail to understand the difference between justification and the new birth, much less the difference between justification by faith/blood, justification by faith, and justification by works. First of all, justification is a legal term. It is a declaration, a ruling made by a court. To be justified doesn't mean to be born of the Spirit.
There is legal work to salvation and vital work. The legal work was taken care of by Christ on the cross. He finished this work, hence He said, "It is finished" and sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. However, the vital work is ongoing. Even now the Holy Spirit is carrying out the purprose of God in regenerating His elect and shall continue until that last heir of promise is born again.
You've yet to show me one scripture that tells me that I must place faith in Christ in order to be born from above. In fact, the scriptures you provided don't say that our eternal justification (which again is distinct from regeneration) is based upon our faith in Christ.
There is legal work to salvation and vital work. The legal work was taken care of by Christ on the cross. He finished this work, hence He said, "It is finished" and sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. However, the vital work is ongoing. Even now the Holy Spirit is carrying out the purprose of God in regenerating His elect and shall continue until that last heir of promise is born again.
You've yet to show me one scripture that tells me that I must place faith in Christ in order to be born from above. In fact, the scriptures you provided don't say that our eternal justification (which again is distinct from regeneration) is based upon our faith in Christ.
That does not say what you are trying to make it say.
Are spiritually dead people justified or those spiritually alive?
Eph. 2:9 does not support the "gift of faith" as so often used. It supports the entire phrase that we are saved by grace through faith, and that this is the gift of God.
Justification and the new birth are one in the same. If you believe they are separate, it is you that does not understand them properly. Passing from death to life is justification. Also, if you don't feel those passages support our eternal justification via faith, we really don't have much more to talk about, as it is as plain as the nose on your face.
Alright, if justification is being born again, how does one explain these other times the word justification or justified is used in scripture.
1 Timothy 3:16 says that "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit." Was Christ born again? Obviously, that's not what justified means there.
James 2:21 says Abraham was justified by works. Verse 24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." So, according to you, Abraham must have been born again by works as well as faith.
How about Psalm 51:4, quoted by Paul in Romans 4? "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest." Was God born of the Spirit of God?
Jeremiah 3:11 - "And the Lord said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah." Israel had born herself of God more than Judah?
Matthew 11:19, Jesus says, "But wisdom is justified of her children." Wisdom is born again of her children?
Obviously, to be justified doesn't mean to be born again. The standard definition of justify is to declare just or righteous.
1 Timothy 3:16 says that "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit." Was Christ born again? Obviously, that's not what justified means there.
James 2:21 says Abraham was justified by works. Verse 24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." So, according to you, Abraham must have been born again by works as well as faith.
How about Psalm 51:4, quoted by Paul in Romans 4? "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest." Was God born of the Spirit of God?
Jeremiah 3:11 - "And the Lord said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah." Israel had born herself of God more than Judah?
Matthew 11:19, Jesus says, "But wisdom is justified of her children." Wisdom is born again of her children?
Obviously, to be justified doesn't mean to be born again. The standard definition of justify is to declare just or righteous.
Ummm. You missed the point completely with respect to the sacrifice for one who sinned in ignorance. THEY had to offer the sacrifice and could ONLY do such once they 'realized' what they did 'actaully was' a sin. Thus the sacrifice was made 'after' they understood that what was done is a sin because it was not accounted against them until then.
When and if another person made a sacrifice for someone else 'in case they sinned' (like Lot for his children) it was not to cleanse them from that sin but to basically ask God to be merciful to them and help them see the truth.
Justification with respect to salvation is synonomous with being born again.
One can not be born again unless one is degreed by God to be justified in His sight.
The word in the other senses you illistrate make the point that justification comes From God and is established IN God since He is the very standard which determines if one measures up. All that to say this - In order to be justified in those actions above one must first be justified TO God and thus saved. So justification always aludes to salvation (which places one in a right standing with God - our standard) OR, with respect to God, it illistrates the very standard we are measure up to.
How does one find out they have violated the law, become "Aware" of the violations??
The wages of sin is death, even for one sin, so why wasn't the "ignorant sin" punished by death same as the "presumptuous sin"???
A child sins "ignorantly" before they learn of sin, either being taught the law or the spirit convicting, when they become "aware" they decide to sacrifice the "body of sin" for atonement, or continue in sin.
But as long as they are ignorant of sin, they won't make a sacrifice.
I do not deny that justification is one aspect to salvation, but I wholly deny that it is synonomous with being born again. Everyone born again is justified by grace, and everyone justified by grace shall be born again, but justification does not equal the new birth. They are separate in the sense of application.
How are you justified? Well, God has freely given you the righteousness of Christ. His righteousness is perfect and holy, total obedience to the law, therefore we are holy and without blame before Him in love because we are clothed with this righteousness. Because we are now clothed in His righteousness, we are declared just or righteous in the sight of God, or justified. How is one born again? Well, the Spirit of God moves upon a child of God, bringing that person from a state of death in sins to a state of life in Christ. He takes out that stony heart and replaces it with a heart of flesh. He writes His laws upon our hearts and makes us sensible of our own sinful condition. We are now no longer under the dominion of sin, but are free from that dominion that we should bring forth fruit unto God and yeild our members servants to righteousness. The new birth brings us into vital union with Jesus Christ, where His blood is vitally applied to us, our scarlet sins are made white as snow, we become aware of our exceeding sinfullness, and the now alive inward man delights in the law of God. Jusification by grace is a legal declaration, from which now that terrible prosecutor, the accuser of our brethren, Satan, can no longer bring anything against our charge.
A good illustration of justification by grace is shown in the opening verses of Zechariah chapter 3.
How are you justified? Well, God has freely given you the righteousness of Christ. His righteousness is perfect and holy, total obedience to the law, therefore we are holy and without blame before Him in love because we are clothed with this righteousness. Because we are now clothed in His righteousness, we are declared just or righteous in the sight of God, or justified. How is one born again? Well, the Spirit of God moves upon a child of God, bringing that person from a state of death in sins to a state of life in Christ. He takes out that stony heart and replaces it with a heart of flesh. He writes His laws upon our hearts and makes us sensible of our own sinful condition. We are now no longer under the dominion of sin, but are free from that dominion that we should bring forth fruit unto God and yeild our members servants to righteousness. The new birth brings us into vital union with Jesus Christ, where His blood is vitally applied to us, our scarlet sins are made white as snow, we become aware of our exceeding sinfullness, and the now alive inward man delights in the law of God. Jusification by grace is a legal declaration, from which now that terrible prosecutor, the accuser of our brethren, Satan, can no longer bring anything against our charge.
A good illustration of justification by grace is shown in the opening verses of Zechariah chapter 3.
Proof that justified means declared to be just, and doesn't necessarily always come from God, nor it is always a correct delcaration.
Isaiah 5:20-23 - "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!"
Here are some that are not using God's standards, but their own, and in their own standards are justifying the wicked, or delcaring them to be just. God sends woes upon these people. So you see, justification does not equal the new birth, nor does it always have reference to an act of God or God's standards.
Isaiah 5:20-23 - "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!"
Here are some that are not using God's standards, but their own, and in their own standards are justifying the wicked, or delcaring them to be just. God sends woes upon these people. So you see, justification does not equal the new birth, nor does it always have reference to an act of God or God's standards.
What is this "everyone justified 'shall be' born again" non-sense?
If one is justified, one IS saved period.
And how has God freely justified us - through faith, just as we are sanctified (through faith) and indwelt by His Spirit (through faith) and never biblically prior to.
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Brother you really need to learn how to study. This does not contradict anything I stated previously.
This states that wicked men 'try to justify' wickedness and on what grounds is that justification sought - to make it right and accaptable. Thus there is a standard that they are trying make something equate to it through their own ways. God or better His charactor is that standard in which they seek to be acceptable just as the godly or saved are. Thus it stands in perfect harmony with what I stated previously
They twist what is not right to try to place it in that same position with what IS right.
If we are justified (in an absolute, eternal sense) by faith, we are also justified in that same sense by works. That's what James said, Abraham wasn't justified by faith only, but also by works.
What does "freely" mean? Without condition, merit, or payment. What you have said is that God freely gives you the righteousness of Christ, but you must first place faith in Him. That doesn't sound free to me. Instead, that sounds like a condition I must first fullfill. If then I do this, I'm not longer freely justified but rather conditionally justified, and that by my own effort.
What does "freely" mean? Without condition, merit, or payment. What you have said is that God freely gives you the righteousness of Christ, but you must first place faith in Him. That doesn't sound free to me. Instead, that sounds like a condition I must first fullfill. If then I do this, I'm not longer freely justified but rather conditionally justified, and that by my own effort.
It doesn't matter what it sounds like to you brother. What matters is what scripture says and it states in no uncertain terms that we are justified by faith.
Secondly go back and read Romans 4:3-6 and you will notice that faith or believing is never seen as a 'work'. Not once, ever.
Thirdly, it is important to understand that God's grace is wrapped up in Christ for John 1:17 states that grace and truth came by Christ Jesus. Christ was given for all me. No man meritted such a thing but He was freely given. Christ Jesus is the very embodiment of grace and grace personified.
Fouthly, you are right - there is a contidition that 'needs' to be fulfilled in order to be saved. I'm sure you have read the scripture 'believe AND BE saved'. It never once, ever, in scripture declares 'be saved AND believe'. Even the Calvinist/reformed agrees that no man is saved apart from faith - unless one holds to a hyper-Cal position.
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